EQ Freelance Forum

General Public => Freelance Ramblings => Topic started by: Furro on February 06, 2009, 10:54:22 PM

Title: Freelance DKP & Random
Post by: Furro on February 06, 2009, 10:54:22 PM

    
Freelance is changing over to a DKP & Random loot system.

This is a massive change to how loot will be done on Freelance raids.  Since this isn't a guild, the system will have to be adjusted to deal with an open raid concept.  A system that doesn't shutout new members from joining.

Post your comments in this thread.  I'll be replying or editing this post, with updated DKP rules as they're ironed out.  This way it's an open process and you can see what's being considered.  I value your insight and hope this process will help iron out details which may get overlooked.

Objective:

The main objective here, is to create a fair system that rewards regular attending members, but at the same time gives newcomers a chance at loot.  Through collaboration, this document will be revised to reflect valid concerns of fairness, close potenial loopholes for abuse and trim up areas I may have accidently overlooked.  Once finalized, it should explain clearly how loot opportunities are fairly available to everyone, including those with limited playtimes.  In addition, it should explain in detail all calculations where applicable.

Please keep an open mind and add your concerns or suggestions by posting a reply within this thread.  Thanks.


 
    

Freelance Hybrid DKP System

HTML Version (http://www.eqfreelance.net/basics/loot_rules.html)

Freelance EQDKP Database (http://www.eqfreelance.net/eqdkp)

System Overview

Freelance uses a hybrid DKP system for item distribution during raids.   The system incorporates both random chance and point rewards for participation.  This document explains the hybrid system, it's rules and related procedures.

A condensed overview of Freelance loot rules are explained at the start of each raid, and/or prior to item distribution.


Zero-tolerance Policy

We have a zero-tolerance policy with regards to item distribution.  If you're not sure on any aspect of the rules below, it's your responsibility to ask questions.  We recommend you never loot an item unless told to do so explicitly by the Raid Leader or someone designated with Raid Authority.  Looting something out of turn, and then claiming you didn't understand the rules is not acceptable and will result in a ban for life from Freelance raids.


Terminology

This section defines terms and abbreviations used within this system and/or during item distribution.
 
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TERM		DEFINITION
Loot		Items considered of value that drop during raids.  Usually from main events, but sometimes from other sources.
Loot Bounty		A collection of items considered of value that drop at an event.  Normally found after successful completion
		of an event.
Bounty Total		A value derived from total spent DKP on a per target basis.  Used in calculating DKP earnings.
/random		In-game random dice rolling, it can be any range between 0 to 32000.  Freelance uses 0 to 1000
		(example: /random 1000).
Real Life Person		This applies to a single person in the real world playing single or multiple characters in-game.
		All their characters are considered the same person, even if the person is boxing someone elses character.
FFA		This means "free for all".  In the context of this section, an item called as FFA is open to anyone who wants it
		without a /random or cost attached.
OPEN		Items tied to a category, that have gone through a first pass for distribution, where no player interest was
		declared.  These items are still subject to the DKP cost attached.
Last Call		This is done as a last warning call before /randoms are closed for the particular item.
Regular Loot		Items tied to the "LOOT" category, are items that count towards your loot for the night.
DKP		"Dragon Kill Points".  In general this is our system used to quantify loot distribution based on raid participation.
		These points are awarded for time spent on our raids, and used as currency to purchase items of value.
Current DKP		An individuals total point pool or holdings.
Mains, Alternates,		Different forms of character classification.  For the purpose of DKP tracking, these are all considered
Bots, Non-Mains		one and the same, in that they're equal individual entities and tracked as such.
Raid Attendance		An individuals participiation count, that is tracked.
Item Cost		A numerical value attached to an item.

Item Distribution

Freelance uses both DKP and Random 1000 to distribute items.  All items are associated with a category, and each category tied to a ruleset; which is used for item distribution.

* Important: DKP is still a factor, regardless of distribution method used (DKP/Random).  What this means is, you still earn DKP for an event where an item is distributed via /random.  By the same token, any items won via random, the DKP value attached is deducted from your Current DKP holdings.  For a newcomer, winning a /random, it's entirely possible to go into negative Current DKP holdings.  This can be alievated, by continuing to show up for raids.


Item Categories

Items categorized in this section, fall within the confines of the Freelance Hybrid DKP System.  Each "Real Life" person is allowed to participate, winning one AUG, LOOT, RUNE, and NA item per night.  "OPEN" items still count as your item in that category for the night, and are available to anyone, including prior winners.
 

     1         2         ]3         ]3         ]4         ]

CATEGORY		DEFINITION		RULESET		DKP BASE
AUG		Augmentation Item		Random 1000		10
LOOT		Regular Loot Item		DKP		10
RUNE		Spell / Melee Disc		Random 1000		5
N/A		Miscellaneous Items		Random 1000 & Raid Attendance		0
OPEN		Used in conjunction with above categories		Random 1000

In-game Preliminary:

 - Condensed version of the loot rules is covered in /raidsay
 - Loot Bounty is linked in /raidsay
 - "Doing loot now" call is made in /raidsay

Retro Content - Item Distribution by Player Request:

At the time of item distribution, the chest contents will be linked in /raidsay, and players interested are asked to link in the FLRaids channel the items they want processed.  The purpose of this procedure is to expedite the distribution process of low demand items.

Random 1000 Ruleset

Overview

All applicable category items are distributed via Random 1000 Ruleset.  Highest number wins; with one random per item, per "Real Life" person; and limited to one item win a night.


Stipulations

The following conditions are in play during the random ruleset:

• Strict /random format 0 - 1000

   

• One /random per item, per "Real Life" person

   

• One item win a night

   

• AUG, RUNE and LOOT categorized items, are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.

   

• N/A items may be subject to a Raid Attendance factor to determine eligibility for random.

   

• OPEN items tied to a category, are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.

   

• OPEN items are processed LAST.

   

• Identical items subject to Random 1000 Ruleset, are processed in a single pass.

   

• Items available for NPC Trade-In are distributed in the following order: LOOT, LOOT OPEN, LOOT OPEN (Classes: ALL).  These items are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.

Exceptions

The exceptions to the above random ruleset are as follows:

• "OPEN" items still count as your item in that category for the night, and are available to anyone, including prior winners.

 

• The Random procedure will be bypassed for class specific items, that fall under any category, when only one person of said class is in attendance.  The item will be categorized at that time only, by the Raid Leader, as FFA.

Random Ruleset Procedure

This section covers the format used during random ruleset.


Random Process Format:

/ran 1000 on < item_link > - < category >, GL!

< approximately 15 second window for randoms >

Last call on < item_link > (15 seconds).

< approximately 15 second window for randoms >

./random CLOSED.

Congrats < player_name > on < item_link > (their number rolled).


Random Process Completion:

After the items have been randomed off, a "Loot up winners!" call is done in /raidsay.  After which, winners may loot their item(s).


Random Ruleset Do's & Don'ts

This is a friendly reminder area to cover some common sense aspects of random.

Do's:

• Do understand our loot rules and ask questions on details you're not sure about.

   

• Do make sure you're near the person doing loot, so your /random is not out of range.

   

• Do try and make sure the item is usable by your class (ie, that the item lists your class where appropriate).

   

• Do make sure you are /randoming on the character that will be looting the item if you win (this applies to boxed characters).

Don'ts:

• Don't random if you have no intention of looting the item on win (ie: no joke randoms for fun, it's confusing and slows us down).

   

• Don't deviate from our /random 1000 format.  No exceptions are made (ie: /random 1 1000 is not acceptable, so don't do it).

   

• Don't make any side deals (offering money or whatever) to the higher rollers if you're the runner up to make them pass, so you can win the item.

   

• Don't AFK if you're waiting to /random on something.  We don't have all night to wait around for you to return.

Disclaimer:

Any category items being distributed in this fashion are done so on a per item basis.  Any item that does not fall under the Random 1000 Ruleset is made clear at the time of distribution.  These items are most likely, but not always, covered in the Miscellaneous Items section.

DKP Ruleset

Overview

All applicable category items are distributed via DKP Ruleset.

Raiders decide the value of an item, based on their desire to have it.

All items being auctioned have a base open bid value of 10 DKP.

Minimum bid increments of 5 DKP at a time.
 
There are 3 rounds of bidding, all done in /raidsay.

A player cannot bid more then his Current DKP holdings.


Stipulations

The following conditions are in play during the DKP ruleset:

• Strict Bid War format

   

• One bidder only, per "Real Life" person (no bidding on multiple boxed characters).

   

• One item win a night, per "Real Life" person.

   

• Tie or Matched Bids are ONLY permitted when an individual's current DKP holdings are equal to the current bid at the time.

   

• LOOT categorized items, are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.

   

• OPEN items tied to a category, are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.

   

• Items available for NPC Trade-In are distributed in the following order: LOOT, LOOT OPEN, LOOT OPEN (Classes: ALL).  These items are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.

Exceptions

The exceptions to the above DKP ruleset are as follows:

• "OPEN" items still count as your item in that category for the night, and are available to anyone, including prior winners.

 

• The DKP procedure will be bypassed for class specific items, that fall under any category, when only one person of said class is in attendance.  The item will be categorized at that time only, by the Raid Leader, as FFA.

 

• Minimum bid exception - If your MAX TOTAL Current DKP holdings does not fall within 5 DKP; in which case you are allow to go all in.
  

Bid War Procedure

Shown here is the bid process format, all done in /raidsay, including those bidding on items.

Taking bids on < item_link > - < category >.   Starting at 10 DKP!

< approximately 15 second window for bids >

< GOING ONCE > at < HIGHEST DKP BID >

< approximately 15 second window for additional bids >

< GOING TWICE > at < HIGHEST DKP BID >

< approximately 15 second window for additional bids >

Bidding CLOSED.

Congrats < player_name > on < item_link > for < bid_amount > DKP!


Ties Between Bidders
 
Tied bids are resolved via Random 1000 Ruleset, between the tied bidders.  The item cost used is the tied bid value.

Tied Bidders Format:

Tied Maximum Bids! - ONLY: < player_names >, /random 1000 now on < item_link > for < tied_bid_value > DKP!

Last call (tied bidders only) on < item_link >, for < tied_bid_value > DKP!

./random CLOSED.

Congrats < player_name > on < item_link > for  < tied_bid_value > DKP.


No bidders on an item
 
Three elapsed rounds of no bids and the item will be processed as "OPEN", via the Random 1000 Ruleset.


Disclaimer:

Any category items being distributed in this fashion are done so on a per item basis.  Any item that does not fall under the DKP Ruleset is made clear at the time of distribution.  These items are most likely, but not always, covered in the Miscellaneous Items section.

DKP Gain & Loss

This area explains the factors that relate to earning and spending DKP.


Dynamic DKP Earning

DKP is earned based on the total value of loot distributed, divided by the total number of attendees, on a per event or target basis.

Formula: [ bounty_total / raid_attendance ]

Note:  bounty_total is dynamic, that means constantly changing.  Covered in section below under 'Dynamic DKP Spending'  with fixed minimum opening bid value per item.

All totals rounded to the nearest whole number.

Example 1:

Bounty Total: 500 DKP
Max minimum Bounty Total: 40 DKP (that's 10 DKP per item, 4 items)

Raid Attendance: 35
Win DKP Earned: 14
Fail DKP Earned: 1

Fail calculation:

= (40/35)
=  1.14


Dynamic DKP Spending

Items being auctioned for DKP, go through an open bid process.  Once done, the highest bid value is attached to that particular item.  This item value is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings (with appropriate taxes applied).

Auction details are covered in section 'DKP Ruleset'


DKP Tax

In order to encourage DKP spending, and help stem off hoarding, all items are subject to a tax.  For every 1 DKP held, ensues a tax of 0.25%.   This tax is applied only on spent items.  So for example, someone with 150 DKP holdings, would pay 37.5% more for an item.

All totals are rounded to the nearest whole number.

Formula:  [ dkp_holdings ( tax_rate ) ] ( item_cost )

Example:

Player_A: 150 DKP holdings
Item Cost: 20 DKP
Player_A Cost: 28 DKP

Calculations:

= (150 (0.0025))(20)
= 0.375 (20)
= 7.5



* Important: Tax is not in effect at this time.  We're still in the early stages of this DKP system, and having tax in place as we're seeding the system is counter productive.  We may need to tweak with the tax rate also, but for now numbers are needed in the system to see how everything works out.

* Be aware:  Tax is calculated only after items are purchased.  This means, don't factor in tax to find out what you have available to bid with.  Simply use your Current DKP holdings as a ceiling during bidding.  It's entirely possible and normal, after tax is calculated from a purchase, to go into negative DKP territory.

Raid Attendance

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This section covers attendance procedure, stipulations, exceptions, and abuse.


Raid Attendance Procedure

Each person's raid attendance, is the determining factor as to whether they earn DKP and the amount for any particular raid.


DKP Check Procedure

• At start - when clearing trash, and/or prepping for an event or target.
• At event or target engage.
• At finish - when raid is done for the night.

Note:  Start/Finish checks are always 1 DKP.


Raid Attendance Stipulations

To be considered in attendance, you must meet the following conditions:

• Ready for action
• In the zone specified
• Within range of the raid

Raid Attendance Exceptions

There are no exceptions to the above stipulations.  This includes the following:

• No adjustments for LD / RIP time elapsed.
• No additions for joining after RA check.
• No other excuses, including real life emergencies will be considered, ever.

The list above, may seem harsh.  But the reality is, there's no accurate way in which the Raid Leader can make adjustments and be fair to everyone.  There's just no taking anyone at face value regarding any situation that may affect ones attendance.  The moment any adjustment is made, it raises speculation as to biases/favoritisms.

Everyone must just deal with the fact, that they will miss attendance checks from time to time for whatever reason(s).  Receiving half credit for a raid, is still better then receiving no credit.


Raid Attendance Abuse

This is to address and stem off possible abuse of the RA check system.

RA abuse constitutes showing up for an attendance check, then promptly leaving afterwards in order to receive credit.

1 DKP Start Check taken +/- 5 minutes from official start time.

Just a friendly word of warning.  These types of abuse to the system are easy to spot and can be tracked using pattern parsing techniques behind the scenes.  Freelance logs everything.  Any abusers will be banned for life from Freelance raids.


Inactive Raiders

* Be aware: This section will be reviewed and possibly revised at some future point.  At this time, there is no DKP decay in place.  The DKP system is setup to track activity, and simply mark any individual who exceeds the threshold set below.

A raider is considered inactive when they do not meet the following condition:  120 days without attending any Freelance raids.

Miscellaneous Items

Progression Items

Progression items such as Key/Flags are distributed via the N/A category.  N/A items inherit the guidelines associated with the ruleset used at the time of distribution.


Special Case Items

Items that spawn instances; unlock doors; and/or otherwise required for raid functionality are distributed to the Raid Leader, or those with Raid Authority.





CHANGELOG:
- Fixed up some brackets on the formulas
- Removed duplicate word in description of Current DKP under the Terminology section.
- Added "Trash Clearing" with it's associated deinfition above, to Terminology section. 
- Adjusted wording under DKP Gains section, relating to Trash Clearing, from 'early clear' to 'Trash Clearing'. 
- Replaced variable 'early_clear' to 'trash_clearing' in section DKP Gain Forumla.
- Replaced wording 'early clear' to 'trash clearing' in the example, under DKP Gain Forumla section.
- Added 'Key-type items' to the list of Miscellaneous Items
- Organized Miscellaneous Items section to a list format.
- Added a disclaimer for possible future changes to listed items under the 'Miscellaneous Items' section.
- Added Section: 'Transition Phase', along with associated details
- Fixed 'DKP Gain Formula' in sub-section 'DKP Gains' (brackets misplaced)
- Adjusted 'Item Cost Formula' in 'Item Cost' section
- Changed variable in 'Item Cost Formula' under the 'Item Cost' section from value 20 representing tier, to variable 'tier'
- Adjusted Examples in 'DKP Gain Formula' and 'Item Cost' to use the revised formulas
- Revised procedure/circumstances in sub-section 'No Ayes (2nd pass) under section 'Loot Distribution Procedure'
- Revised/added sub-sections/related material under 'Transition Phase' section
- Fixed typo and sentence structure under section 'Item Cost'
- Removed sections: 'DKP Gain, Loss & Decay', 'Item Cost', 'Item Cost Decay', and 'Loot Distribution Procedure'
- Added sub-sections: 'Dynamic DKP Earning', 'Dynamic DKP Spending' under section 'DKP Gain & Loss'.
- Added sections: 'DKP Tax' and 'MIA Players'
- Revised wording in sub-section 'Dynamic DKP Earning' under section 'DKP Gain & Loss'
- Removed the following terms and descriptions under 'Terminology' section: 'Decay', Lifetime Raid Attendance', 'Lifetime DKP', 'Negative DKP', 'Trash Clearing'
- Added 'Raid Attendance' and its description, under section 'Terminology'
- Revised 'Item Cost' description under section 'Terminology'
- Revised wording in sub-section 'Dynamic DKP Spending' under section 'DKP Gain & Loss'
- Added section 'Raid Attendance'
- Added sub-sections: 'Raid Attendance Procedure', 'Raid Attendance Stipulations', 'Raid Attendance Exceptions', 'Raid Attendance Abuse'
- Revised 'MIA Players' section
- Added clause to section 'Transition Phase'
- Adjusted tax rate from 0.5% to 0.25% under section 'DKP Tax'
- Revised wording/figures in section 'DKP Tax'
- Modified 'Be Aware' clause, under section 'Transition Phase'
- Revised 'Raid Attendance' definition,  under section 'Terminology'
- Added 'Bounty Total' and its description, under section 'Terminology'
- Clarified wording under sub-section 'Dynamic DKP Earning', under section 'DKP Gain & Loss'
- Revised wording in sub-section 'Dynamic DKP Spending', under section 'DKP Gain & Loss'
- Added section 'Open Bid Wars'
- Added sub-sections 'Overview' and 'Bid War Procedure', under section 'Open Bid Wars'
- Corrected a value in the tax example, under section 'DKP Tax'
- Adjusted sub-section 'Bid War Procedure' bid window time from 10-15 to 30, under section 'Open Bid Wars'
- Corrected spelling in various sections
- Removed 'Transition Phase' sections and related sub-sections.
- Added 'Loot Distribution States' section.
- Added sub-section 'Loot Distribution State Procedure', under section 'Loot Distribution States'.
- Removed 'MIA Players' section.
- Added 'Inactive Raiders' section
- Changed document title from 'Freelance DKP System' to 'Freelance Hybrid DKP System'
- Added additional terminology to section 'Terminology'
- Added sections 'System Overview' and 'Zero-Tolerance Policy'
- Added 'Random Loot Ruleset' section
- Added sub-sections: 'Overview', 'Stipulations', 'Exceptions', 'Random Ruleset Procedure', 'Random Ruleset Do's & Don'ts', Disclaimer' and related contents therein, under section 'Random Loot Ruleset'
- Renamed 'Open Bid Wars' section, to 'DKP Loot Ruleset'
- Rearranged  and reworded sections to help with flow.
- Added HTML link of the document, that points to the main Freelance site.
- Added EQDKP database link, that points to the Freelance EQDKP database.
- Changed Topic title to better reflect the system being represented.
- Rearranged the sections to help correspond the flow as I have it laid out on the main site.
- Added sub-sections 'Ties between Bidders', 'No bidders on an item', under section 'DKP Loot Ruleset'
- Revised section 'Terminology', terms: "Open to All", "Regular Loot".  Changes flow throughout the document.
- Revised  section 'Loot Distribution States', Activation of hybrid state clause, with associated effective date.
- Revised section 'Random Loot Ruleset', sub-sections: 'Description', 'Stipulations', 'Exceptions', 'Random Ruleset Procedure', 'Disclaimer'.
- Revised section 'DKP Loot Ruleset', sub-sections: 'Description', 'Exceptions', 'Bid War Procedure', 'Disclaimer'.
- Revised section 'Miscellaneous Items' rephrased and category additions.
- Added section 'Item Categories'
- Fixed spelling and sentence structure and other minor omissions
- Changed section title 'Loot Distribution States' to 'Item Distribution States'
- Changed sub-section title 'Loot Distribution States Procedure' to 'Item Distribution States Procedure'
- Changed section title 'Random Loot Ruleset' to 'Random 1000 Ruleset'
- Changed section title 'DKP Loot Ruleset' to 'DKP Ruleset'
- Adjusted wording/removed table within the 'Miscellaneous Items' section
- Added N/A Category, to cover miscellaneous items
- Under DKP Tax sub-section, added 'Important' clause.
- Changed wording in 'Terminology' section, for term: 'Raid Attendance'.
- Changed sub-section 'Dynamic DKP Earning' description.
- Changed sub-section 'Raid Attendance Procedure' description.
- Added sub-section 'DKP Check Procedure' under section 'Raid Attendance'
- Amended sub-sections 'Exceptions' in sections 'Random 1000 Ruleset', and 'DKP Ruleset'
- Adjusted timeframes and format under procedure, in sections: 'Random 1000 Ruleset', and 'DKP Ruleset'
- Minor verbiage changes addressed below within the related process/procedural areas to reduce the amount of typing required.
- Reformatted areas for easier reading, by reducing bolded sections.
- Item Distribution States changed from 50/50, to 70/30.
- Item Distribution State Procedure changed to reflect 70/30 adjustment
- Changed section Item Categories, table item Miscellaneous Item, added RA factor.
- Changed section Random 1000 Ruleset, sub-section Stipulations, added N/A items reference to factor in RA
- Changed section Random 1000 Ruleset, sub-section Stipulations, added NPC Trade-In procedure
- Changed section DKP Ruleset, sub-section Stipulations, added NPC Trade-In procedure
- Added "No Tie Bids" to DKP system, related Stipulations sub-section, altered to reflect change.
- N/A inheritance reference to 'Item Category' description
- Fixed wording in the 'Miscellaneous Items' section for clarity.
- Removed 'Item Distribution State Procedure' section.
- Renamed 'Item Distribution States' to 'Item Distribution'.
- Section 'Item Categories' changed to sub-section and included under 'Item Distribution' section.
- Added "OPEN" Category to table in 'Item Categories' sub-section for clarity as to purpose.
- Changed 'Random 1000 Ruleset', sub-sections: Overview, Stipulations.
- Corrected missing category 'RUNE', under 'Random 1000 Ruleset' section, sub-section 'Stipulations'.
- Changed 'DKP Ruleset', sub-sections: Overview, No Bidders on an Item.
- Reformatted terms section for cleaner presentation.  No new terms added.
- Added Minimum 5 dkp increments and related exception clause.
- Added clause: Retro Content - Item Distribution by Player Request.
- Changed: OPEN items to be processed LAST.
- Changed: Identical items subject to Random 1000 Ruleset, will be processed in a single pass.
- Changed: Start DKP check from +/- 15 mins to 5 mins of official start time.

Title: Re: Freelance DKP
Post by: Darkwaters on February 07, 2009, 12:19:13 AM

I think moveing to a dkp system is a very good idea. /ran-for-raids and dkp-raids both have their pros and cons, however, for Freelance, dkp encourages more serious and regular participation. A set raid force will develop, thus allowing those who wish to continue raiding with Furro to gain gear faster... and, this will allow for all of us to see more challenging and interesting content as time goes by. DKP can not only be a fair and efficent manner to split up loot in raids, but also helps weed out Loot-and-Scooters. I for one, look forward to seeing this take place.

A few thoughts to throw into the creative process, if I may:

Minimum Bids
A minimum bid placed on any given item is a good method of ensureing that people are less inclined to stockpile dkp and then outbid others with massive numbers.

Maximum Bids
A maximum bid placed on an item (ie, 'Bid on Dark's Old Coke Can (min 5 - max 15)') is a way to make sure new members (with less dkp banked) have an honest chance at getting loot.

Bid Rounds
Haveing 2-3 rounds of bidding discourages hell-bent-for-leather bids... People will be more conservative durring bids, and give managment a relativly accurate gauge of item-values. (m&m may change for each round)

RA / Loot History
What about ties on bids? How can loot rights be established? One time tested method is RA/LH. RA/LH favors members who have a better RA% than someone who does not, but also takes into consideration Loot History. Someone who has looted less then the other bidder may get favored. This allows loot to be evenly distributed. High RA with low LH equals a good chance at being granted loot rights.

Item Values
DKP values for new content priced higher than old content. Why?
1) Encourages older members to spend DKP on new content.
2) Encourages new members to spend DKP on farm content, and still get upgrades.

DKP Bonuses
A DKP bonus to be awarded to attendees for attendance in content that they do not bid in. This encourages people to attend any event. Even if they do not gain loot rights, they still benefit.

Anyway, thats my thoughts... may have more later. Hope that helps!

Title: Re: Freelance DKP
Post by: Darkwaters on February 07, 2009, 12:29:56 AM

DKP is also a good way to guage a raid force's need to raid any given contend. When management see's bids slacking off for some raid, its a good indicator that people dont need gear from that event... thus allowing management to plan for new content.

Title: Re: Freelance DKP
Post by: Breniar on February 07, 2009, 01:17:12 AM

Excellent idea and about time imo.  I doubt i'll be there either way but congrats to the cornerstone players who put tons of time into the team.  

Title: Re: Freelance DKP
Post by: Huevos on February 07, 2009, 05:44:27 AM

The issue of multiple toons by the same person or sharing accounts needs to be addressed too.

Title: Re: Freelance DKP
Post by: Thewun on February 07, 2009, 06:17:00 AM

Quote

As long as Freelance is doing DKP, I will not be there with any of my toons

Can you please elaborate on why?  Your thoughts and experiences on these matters are incredibly important to us.

Title: Re: Freelance DKP
Post by: Poddo on February 07, 2009, 09:11:06 PM

Although if we were a serious raiding  group  DKPs are the most fair.  I as I do not think any other system can really compare.    However I have enjoyed raiding with  Freelance  since I have first  noticed in PoP.  Here is why the loss /random saddens me a bit.  I for one only can raid  once in a blue moon  and some times I have come away with some nice loot and most times  I have not.  But on every raid I had a chance.  Now going to  a dkp system will mean  that my chance will slim down to those that are able to attend more.  The most likely chance is that I will only get the scraps no one else wants.  I am one of the  top group geared beasts on Fennin.  I  try to raid here and there but cant make a commitment to one raiding group.   That is why I like my weekly raid on saturdays and  the occasional Furro raid if I am able to attend.  It gives me the raid fix  I may need or  a random upgrade to my  I think decent gear.

I like the fact on a freelance raid I could just join and not have to worry about things like attendance and other time factors that prevent me from joining a raiding guild.  DKPs  scream to me that I need to worry more about attendance to get the gear I may want.  Which means I will probably pass on raiding with Freelance.  

I do think that this could be a good move for  Freelance and I hope it boosts attendance for Freelance.

Title: Re: Freelance DKP
Post by: Qonamderlo on February 08, 2009, 12:28:03 AM

I for one think a DKP system is a very good idea, i do not have good attendance but this is still the most fair way of doing loot for a raid team be it a guild or an accumulation of people from various guilds. I do not think this will hender anyone with fair raid attendance, being freelance only raids 2 nights per week (at this time) and is not pulling 5 nights a week and 10 targets per raid like some hardcore raiding guilds. And even if you only raid one day a month or 1 out of every 10 raids, who is seriously going to be upset with winning the scrap loots at a low bid? if you have a 300 HP / 115 AC Bp and you win a scrap loot of 450 Hp / 135 AC BP are you really going to be that mad because its DKP? its fair, it keeps people attending raids on a regular basis, it cuts down on wipes with the same people showing up more often then not. AND the big one, this will cut down from people only raiding ONE zone or event because it suetes them to be able to win that one item they want, then never show up again.

i do think there should be a small bonus for people over 80% raid attendance and this is not a nightly bonus depending on your DKP system your going to use should be a bonus once per week of .001 (1) dkp per week for anyone over 80%.

Also should be an on time or "early" DKp bonus every night of .001 (1). this gets people online and cuts down from waiting an hour until we engage the first event.

I am sure that Furro and team will be extremely fair in this endevour, i have never known him to be anything else.

Just a side note, you should not want to stop raiding just because its switching to DKP, this is a good turning point for team freelance and you should look at this as an opportunity to progress into the endgame of EverQuest.

**Edit** - Just another note, might also think about a .001 (1) DKP bonus for first time event wins as well for those that are there for the raids first time kill of an event..

             -for alts, i think they should get the same amount of DKP as mains BUT when they bid on loot they should pay 1.5% more in DKP value, and should not be able to bid unless no other mains are bidding. (example: if winning bid was at 20 DKP, then they would get charged 30)

I'm sure all of this has already been thought of but just like to throw in my 2cp.

Title: Re: Freelance DKP
Post by: Breniar on February 08, 2009, 01:56:28 PM

I wanted to elaborate as to why I think this is a good idea.  In the past (and present?  I don't know) there were players like Thewun, Heeth, Chekacoch, Suurge, and others i'm sure i'm forgetting.  These people put in tons of hours to get FL moving forward.  In many cases they carried the team and we wouldn't have been able to do a lot of encounters without them.  Now every once in a great while (maybe once, if ever, in some cases) they may want to roll on something.  Almost nothing we did was of any value to these people.  In my opinion they deserve a greater chance at getting these rare loots which they can use.

In contrast to that you get players like Merfy who show up for the single encounter which interests them and they drop the raid immediately afterwards.  Someone who puts in 20 minutes of their time a week (not to mention did nothing to help FL get into DP) shouldn't get an even shot at loot when someone else puts in many hours.  Players like Merfy shouldn't be allowed in the first place but a system like this puts them at a deserved disadvantage.

Title: Re: Freelance DKP
Post by: Thewun on February 09, 2009, 07:16:09 AM

Quote

 
Terminology:

Current DKP - An individuals total total point pool or holdings.

Lifetime Raid Attendance - Expressed as a percent.  This value represents total hours raided with Freelance (an individual running total from first raid attended).

I don't like this part here.  Suppose someone raided once with FL after dkp starts and takes a break, then a year down the line he comes back.  Wouldn't his LRA be adversely affected by the time gap in between?

DKP Gain, Loss & Decay

DKP Gains:

2 DKP for early clear (bonus, not always applied)
Explain what this means.

DKP Gain Formula is:

1 + ( lifetime_attendance/100) [ hour_value ( total_hours ) + early_clear + attendance_check ]

Bracket above.  Lifetime Raid Attendance is too potent of a factor, I'd multiply it by 1.x so that you dilute the effect it has on DKP gain.  Or LRA might be too flawed to keep.  SF uses a 30-day version of this where your attendance % in the last 30 days is the modifier that's used.  That might be better for FL.

DKP Loss & Decay

There are two methods which cause the loss of DKP:  Spending and Decay

Decay:

It looks like points will decay only if you start missing raids, is this right?  The purpose of point decay should not be to force regular attendance, but rather to encourage spending.  This section should be reworked to reflect that.

Item Cost

Not all items will cost DKP.  To clarify, at the moment armor and weapons will have an associated DKP cost attatched.

Item Cost Formula:   [(hit_points + mana) / 2 ] / [20 + focus_value1, 2, 3...]
The focus_value modifier should be in the numerator because those sorts of things make an item more valuable.

Item Cost Decay

Instead of a formula for item cost decay.  It could be addressed by setting a threshold, that once reached item cost would drop by a set percentage.  These percentages could be tweaked as needed.   Be it 10% of DKP value, 25% etc., once X number of items dropped.   It will entirely depend on the item and demand.
Example of this please, I'm uncertain as to what the process here is.

Miscellaneous Items

Key-type items needs to be addressed.  

Loot Distribution Proceedure

No Ayes (2nd Pass):

If no person Ayes on an item on the first pass, it is open for those who lack Current DKP holdings.  This applies to newcomers and/or individuals in Negative DKP standing.

This effectively means that the only loot a new person can win is something not wanted by any of the raiders with positive dkp. The difference can be as little as one hour of time between the winner and loser.  This doesn't seem significant enough to me to say that x deserves loot over y.

Suggestion
Transitory phase between current /ran 1000 and dkp:
- /ran 1000 before every box is opened, if the /ran is < 900 then use the current /ran 1000 method, but if the /ran is >= 900 then use the dkp system.
- next week do the same, but use 800 as the marker instead
- continue dropping by 100 until zero is reached or stop early because you want even the newest person to have a chance at anything

Title: Re: Freelance DKP
Post by: wildwaters on February 09, 2009, 06:42:44 PM

   I haven't raided on Fennin in a long time but I still like to see my friends there continue to progress >.<
   I have had experience with multiple types of dkp systems, council loot systems and /ran loot distribution. I would like to point a few things out if I am not being too bold.
   Primarily I want to point out that this transition can not come at a better time. Once you have started to break into tier one sof and solteris you will begin to move rapidly through content - but only if you distribute loot fairly with emphasis on your higher raid attendance members. Your raid team is only as good as your weakest members and DKP allows you to gear up your entire force evenly and progress at a reasonable rate as a team.
   Secondly, and most importantly, please give your full support to Furro and YOUR raid team (for it is YOUR team) during this process. There are going to be rocky moments and what may appear to be unfair loot awards. Switching to DKP is an evolutionary process and requires full support from all team mates to make it go smoothly. No system is perfect and that is why adjustments need to be made.
   Thirdly I would like to express my congratulations to you all for taking this important step in moving forward as a team >.<

   Now, not to pick on my brother darkwaters, but I am going to correct his misconceptions. I want to apologise to him becasue when he was asking me about DKP systems I was distracted by a series of difficult raids. My answers to him were vague and unexplained, as a result he drew some wrong conclusions.

   Quoting darkwaters, "Minimum Bids
A minimum bid placed on any given item is a good method of ensureing that people are less inclined to stockpile dkp and then outbid others with massive numbers. "

   Not precisely. Minimum bids give you a place to start. They are determined by event values and they determine maxmum bid values.

   Quoting darkwaters, "Maximum Bids
A maximum bid placed on an item (ie, 'Bid on Dark's Old Coke Can (min 5 - max 15)') is a way to make sure new members (with less dkp banked) have an honest chance at getting loot."

   Maximum bid caps serve a few purposes. First it ensures that there are fewer tie breakers. It also serves to prevent 'player A' from blowing all his dkp on one item. If 'player A' buys one 'HOT' upgrade with 1 months dkp and dies 3 times as much as 'player B' who purchased 3 upgrades with 1 months dkp then who do you think is contributing the most to the raid? Minimum and maximum bids also allow for content tiering.

   Quoting darkwaters : "Item Values
DKP values for new content priced higher than old content. Why?
1) Encourages older members to spend DKP on new content.
2) Encourages new members to spend DKP on farm content, and still get upgrades. "

   This is content tiering. What content tiering does is simple. Primarily it encourages all members of the raid team to show up for the progression raids (new content that is not on farm). Thus you earn more dkp for those new difficult fights and you are more likely to be there for them. Members who are poorly geared will then be able to buy the previous contents gear at the old values while earning twice as much dkp. It allows these poorly geared individulals to gear up quickly while the better geared people are getting the hot items from the new content (and paying for through the nose for them I might add >.<). Again your force is only as good as your weakest player.

   Quoting darkwaters "DKP Bonuses
A DKP bonus to be awarded to attendees for attendance in content that they do not bid in. This encourages people to attend any event. Even if they do not gain loot rights, they still benefit."

   Er... no... >.<
   If you earn dkp from attending an event then you are allready recieving benefits, you don't need special treatment just because you attended an event and didn't win anything.
   DKP bonuses should be awarded for these sorts of reasons
     1) an early start is called a week in advance for a raid and a dkp bonus for being on time is announced
     2) first time kill on a difficult event - good job here is some DKP for joo!!!
     3) it is the last event of the night, it is late, the event is difficult and people are logging because they got dkp and loot and are happy. Um... double dkp if you stay and we win babe. Lol it may seem silly but we have won some hard raids with low numbers because we WANTED to.

   Quoting darkwaters: "Bid Rounds
Haveing 2-3 rounds of bidding discourages hell-bent-for-leather bids... People will be more conservative durring bids, and give managment a relativly accurate gauge of item-values. (m&m may change for each round) "

   Having 3 bid rounds is a good idea. Keep in mind to keep the loot process as short as possible so you have more time to raid. You will probably want to have multiple 'raid officers' to do loot quickly. IE while officer 1 is handling the fine steel mace officer 2 is taking bids on the type 1 arrow and officer 3 is recieiving bids on that uber kobold shield.
   The reason for 3 rounds of biding in a closed bid system is that you want to allow a player to bid a min-bid, a mid-bid and a max-bid. For example:

   Min bid on a fine steel sword is 1dkp. Tells are sent to an officer as bid rounds are called.
   Round 1: Player A bids 1dkp, player B bids 1dkp and player C bids 1dkp.
   Round 2: player A bids 2dkp, player B bids 2 dkp and player C bids 4dkp
   Round 3: player A does not raise his bid because he will not pay more than the 2dkp he has allready bif for the fine steel sword. Player B bids 3 dkp and Player C bids 6 dkp.
   Winner: Player C is the winner for 4dkp. Player C outbid player B by 1 dkp but cannot out bid himself. The award is then announced in raid chat 'Grats player C on fine steel sword for 4dkp"

   Now, that is in a closed bid system. Why is a closed bid system the best? It prevents a player from waiting until all bids are in and then sniping the loot with a final dkp call that is only 1 point above the current highest bid. If someone does that they are just slowing down the loot distribution process. Such a person has little respect for the time of his team mates and only cares about what he can loot as opposed to moving forward as a team.

   Quoting darkwaters "RA / Loot History
What about ties on bids? How can loot rights be established? One time tested method is RA/LH. RA/LH favors members who have a better RA% than someone who does not, but also takes into consideration Loot History. Someone who has looted less then the other bidder may get favored. This allows loot to be evenly distributed. High RA with low LH equals a good chance at being granted loot rights."

   The whole point of a DKP system is to encourage high RA so that you have a steady, evenly geared  and reliable raid force to work with each schedualed raid night. You cannot do anything if no one shows up. it benefits everyone who is willing to commit to such a team. Hell if you don't wnat to raid to progress as a team then why join a raid team? You might as well go do group progression - the gear is nuts.
   That being said, loot history really plays no role in a dkp system other than to encumber it. RA over the past thirty days should be the primary way of determing the winner of a dkp tie. Then if 30 day is tied go to 60 day and then 90 and then life time.
   Also constraints should be placed on how many tie breakers you can win in a month. IE if you won a max bid tie in the last 30 days you cannot win another one until 30 days are up.

   Quoting darkwaters: "DKP is also a good way to guage a raid force's need to raid any given contend. When management see's bids slacking off for some raid, its a good indicator that people dont need gear from that event... thus allowing management to plan for new content. "

   Very true. In content prior to solteris you will see alot more rots because there are a large amount of class specific items.
   In solteris and sof/sod content you will see less or no class specific items. So these will not rot (exception being like pally/sk swords etc.). So, yes dark, this is very true. As a raid team sees more and more things rot in previous content it is time to release that content to pick up raids and focus on farming the next content up that they have beaten more than once and then hit up the next highest content available to them for progression.

   Hope this helps guys. Primarily looking at Furros system and some comments I think some definition of what FL is going to expect from a DKP system might be beneficial.

   Currently my guild uses this sort of system which works very well and is easily adaptable toa pick up team:

   Dkp is awarded per an event (per an attempt on progression targets and per a win on farm targets [if a farm target wipes us half of the assigned dkp value is awarded]) and checks are taken at mid-event intervals to count towards RA.
   Minimum bid is set as a multiple of the event value.
   Maximum bid is set as a multiple of the event value.
   Bidding is done via tells to the raid officer handling an item (closed bid system) in three rounds.
   Tie breakers are done by 30 day RA (so if a person that has taken a year long break returns they can then gear up in farm content and if they have good RA over last couple months it has no effect on what they can win at all).
  
   I would like to point out Furro that dkp that is awarded by the hour does little to encourage a person to be on time. Bonuses for being on time are extremely detrmental to those who cannot be on time due to RL.
   Those who are always late due to RL probably know that this will effect their dkp earnings and RA. They will be on time when they can but have made the right choice in choosing RL over raiding EQ.
   Also I would like to encourage you to keep the system simple and evolutionary.
 
   As a good transitory period you might continue /ran 1000 for one month but simply award dkp for that whole month and when a person wins a /ran 1000 they get a minimum bid charge to their earned dkp. This would allow a dkp base to be built up with out having everyone have the same amount of dkp built up. If someone wins a bunch of /ran 1000's and goes negative their dkp could be reset to 0 when the full switch was made.

   I am so encouraged to see you guys going this route and I know my brother is VERY excited about it >.< GL, kick ass and please, please ;tell maelin.wildwaters to show me those uber loots yer gonna be winning >.<

                                                   sincerely - wildwaters

  

Title: Re: Freelance DKP
Post by: Furro on February 09, 2009, 09:11:05 PM

Quote

Quote

 
Terminology:

Current DKP - An individuals total total point pool or holdings.

Lifetime Raid Attendance - Expressed as a percent.  This value represents total hours raided with Freelance (an individual running total from first raid attended).

I don't like this part here.  Suppose someone raided once with FL after dkp starts and takes a break, then a year down the line he comes back.  Wouldn't his LRA be adversely affected by the time gap in between?

Removed duplicate word 'total' noted above in draft version.  Changelog updated.

This is only a terminology section.  It's used to define any abbreviations and terms for clarity.  How these terms come into play later should be address in the relevant sections further in.  

However, to answer your question.  If someone were to take a year hiatus from Freelance and return.  His LRA would of course reflect this.  Again, this is merely a stat, that's being tracked.   How we use it to factor in decay or something else, or NOTHING at all except for tracking is something that I feel is flexible.

Having said this, I'm totally open to changes with how we use LRA.  I think if we can find a delicate balance using it in a fair way, that'd be great.

Quote

Quote

 

DKP Gain, Loss & Decay

DKP Gains:

2 DKP for early clear (bonus, not always applied)
Explain what this means.

Rewording early clear to better define.

Trash Clearing - Applied to events with excessive amounts of trash mobs that must be cleared before reaching the main event target(s).

This is something bonus and not always applied.  I removed the word 'early' so that it can be used in different stages of the raid.   Early implies during gather or something, which isn't exactly what I want it used for exclusively.

I wanted to add this bonus in, to account for zones like Meldrath’s Majestic Mansion, where it's known to have alot of trash to clear prior to each event etc.  The zone I mention is only an example. I want some form of bonus option available in the system so it's there and can be used when needed.

While I'm on the topic of DKP Gain, I realise this area is going to require alot of adjustment.  We may have to increase value per hour, or allow gains in half hour increments etc.  This is all open for debate.  I value everyones insight and past experiences with other DKP systems for what works and doesn't.


Changelog updates:

- Added "Trash Clearing" with it's associated deinfition above, to Terminology section.  
- Adjusted wording under DKP Gains section, relating to Trash Clearing, from 'early clear' to 'Trash Clearing'.  
- Replaced variable 'early_clear' to 'trash_clearing' in section DKP Gain Forumla.
- Replaced wording 'early clear' to 'trash clearing' in the example, under DKP Gain Forumla section.

Quote

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DKP Gain Formula is:

1 + ( lifetime_attendance/100) [ hour_value ( total_hours ) + early_clear + attendance_check ]

Bracket above.  Lifetime Raid Attendance is too potent of a factor, I'd multiply it by 1.x so that you dilute the effect it has on DKP gain.  Or LRA might be too flawed to keep.  SF uses a 30-day version of this where your attendance % in the last 30 days is the modifier that's used.  That might be better for FL.

What I was trying to do here, was give newcomers a boost on DKP gains.  But at the same time, reward those who maintain high attendance.  For example, a newcomer (first time attending our raid), would have 100% lifetime attendance.  So right away, the LRA is not a detriment, but can allow someone new to gain fast DKP and catchup to someone who has say a 75% LRA.  If they don't continue to attend raids, of course, they shouldn't be rewarded and thus, LRA has less effect on their gains.  I guess it's two fold what I'm trying to accomplish, which is retention.

I'm aware of the 30, 60, 90 day DKP attendance systems, but I just wanted to toy around with this idea here to see if it can work.  I'll take a closer look at SF's system and others to see how it pans out.

Quote

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DKP Loss & Decay

There are two methods which cause the loss of DKP:  Spending and Decay

Decay:

It looks like points will decay only if you start missing raids, is this right?  The purpose of point decay should not be to force regular attendance, but rather to encourage spending.  This section should be reworked to reflect that.

Indirectly having LRA tied into decay, rewards those who show up more to Freelance raids, by not having their DKP decay (after the grace period elapses).  We could easily set ceilings where say someone reaches 500 DKP and caps out.  But what's to stop someone from capping out, and then banking that DKP for 3 months until we're in higher content and coming back spending it on items?  This is the kinda thing I want to avoid, no one should be able to bank DKP while taking long periods of absence from FL raids.

Don't get me wrong here, I want to encourage spending of DKP.  However, at the same time, I feel we need to reward regulars for attendance.   The grace period factor is there for a reason also, to lessen the hurt before decay kicks in.  Keep in mind, this grace period can be adjusted upwards if it's felt by others as too low.  Lots of options we can do here to find a balance imo.

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Item Cost

Not all items will cost DKP.  To clarify, at the moment armor and weapons will have an associated DKP cost attatched.

Item Cost Formula:   [(hit_points + mana) / 2 ] / [20 + focus_value1, 2, 3...]
The focus_value modifier should be in the numerator because those sorts of things make an item more valuable.

We could just increase the focus_value numbers.  Items with 1 focus, value 4.  Items with 2 focus, value 8.  This is highly class dependant.  I doubt we're going to find any easy way to calculate focus/clicky importance.  Especially on ALL/ALL items.   Post your formulas, or modify the current one to how you feel it could work.  We have to be careful here also, inflating base value of items for whatever reasons, has to be within the ballpark of achievable to an average attendee through DKP Gains.   What I mean here is, we can't push up the price so high, that it'd take 2 months to earn enough DKP to buy the item.

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Item Cost Decay

Instead of a formula for item cost decay.  It could be addressed by setting a threshold, that once reached item cost would drop by a set percentage.  These percentages could be tweaked as needed.   Be it 10% of DKP value, 25% etc., once X number of items dropped.   It will entirely depend on the item and demand.
Example of this please, I'm uncertain as to what the process here is.

This is totally open ended atm.  Our class makup per raid is so sporadic, that item demand changes from raid to raid.  This has me leaning towards changing the 'Aye/highest holder' system shown further below, to a bid style system with a chaotic element attached (I'll post details on this after).

On a related note regarding the bid comment above, we would still have opening bid values assigned.

Decay may have to be set on a nightly basis, based on current demand that night.  To avoid abuse, collusion among raiders by not bidding to force item value down, we could fallback on /random 1k any items no one bid on.  At least this way it'd open it up to newcomers and/or those without enough dkp.

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Miscellaneous Items

Key-type items needs to be addressed.  

Changelog updates:

- Added 'Key-type items' to the list of Miscellaneous Items
- Organized Miscellaneous Items shown, to a list format.
- Added a disclaimer for possible future changes to listed items under the 'Miscellaneous Items' section.

This section is to cover items outside Armor and Weapons.  Armor includes non-visible slots.

Items listed here will be distributed via normal /random 1000 methods.

• Augments
• Progression Flags
• Runes for spells/discs
• Key-Type Items

Note:  Any item listed here is subject to change and have an assigned DKP value attached.

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Loot Distribution Proceedure

No Ayes (2nd Pass):

If no person Ayes on an item on the first pass, it is open for those who lack Current DKP holdings.  This applies to newcomers and/or individuals in Negative DKP standing.

This effectively means that the only loot a new person can win is something not wanted by any of the raiders with positive dkp. The difference can be as little as one hour of time between the winner and loser.  This doesn't seem significant enough to me to say that x deserves loot over y.

I understand your concern here.  We could scrap 2nd pass altogether, and open it up to /random 1000.   At least then it would be open to newcomers.  We could still apply the DKP value to the winner also.

Quote

Suggestion
Transitory phase between current /ran 1000 and dkp:
- /ran 1000 before every box is opened, if the /ran is < 900 then use the current /ran 1000 method, but if the /ran is >= 900 then use the dkp system.
- next week do the same, but use 800 as the marker instead
- continue dropping by 100 until zero is reached or stop early because you want even the newest person to have a chance at anything

I support this kind of transitory period we discussed this last week.  However, in haste, totally forgot to incorporate it into the draft.  I wanted to get this draft posted to get feedback ASAP.  I've since added this transitory section to the draft.  The changelog reflects the addition.

Changelog updates:

- Added Section: 'Transition Phase', along with associated details

Transition Phase

A temporary measure in which Freelance will gradually phase out aspects of /random for main means of loot distribution.  In place, phase in our DKP loot distribution system.  This will be done using the following method:

Before each bounty of loot is opened, if the Raid Leaders /random 1000 results in < 900, then the current /random 1000 method is used for loot.

Next weekend, same as above is applied, except this time the marker is lowered to < 800.

Each weekend, the marker is dropped by 100, until zero is reached or until a happy medium is decided.  


Note: Whether we phase out /random completely is undecided at this time.  I've allowed wording from above to give us flexibility for changes.  As Thewun pointed out, by not zeroing out the marker, it will allow newcomers a chance at loot.



Thanks for your comments Thewun.

- Furro

Title: Re: Freelance DKP
Post by: Furro on February 09, 2009, 11:04:14 PM

  
Radical idea for incorporating a chance factor.


Loot Distribution

I wrote up this loot idea that I came across.  It incorporates a random factor, within a DKP system.   I was thinking with some modifcations it maybe workable with Freelance.

It's based on open bidding for DKP valued items.  The twist is, highest bidder doesn't necessarily win the item.   It all comes down to chance in the end.   So it's really just how much DKP are you willing to risk for a particular item.  Do you feel lucky?

Here's an example:

Let's say Item_01 drops and a base value is set at 100 DKP.  We open bids on the item and 5 individuals bid ranging from 100 to 175 DKP.

Now those 5 bidders /random their DKP bids!   The person with the resulting number closest to their bid, wins the item.

So, using the above 5 bidders, let's say these are the outcomes:

100 bidder rolls 97
110 bidder rolls a 10
125 bidder rolls a 56
125 bidder rolls a 91
175 bidder rolls a 20

In this case, the LOWEST bidder won and it's completely fair, since he had the points to bid with.  This allows people to put their own weight on item value, and not be shut out by some DKP hoarder who bids high.

It's interesting to me and adds a chance element.  Another point is, we can still set base values for the opening bid.  Of course, we wouldn't allow fractions of DKP to be bid and ties could be addressed with /random 1k perhaps.


Feel free to comment!

- Furro

Title: Re: Freelance DKP
Post by: Thewun on February 10, 2009, 01:27:31 AM

Don't do that last thing you just mentioned in the way you've outlined.  People who bid the minimum bid will always have roughly the same chance of winning anything as any other bid so it behooves everyone to always bid min.  There should be a reason for someone to bid higher, and that's not reflected in that suggestion.

Title: Re: Freelance DKP
Post by: Furro on February 10, 2009, 01:36:47 AM

Quote

Don't do that last thing you just mentioned in the way you've outlined.  People who bid the minimum bid will always have roughly the same chance of winning anything as any other bid so it behooves everyone to always bid min.  There should be a reason for someone to bid higher, and that's not reflected in that suggestion.

I agree, I wouldn't implement it in that fashion either.  I only mentioned it here, to spark some discussion on possible ways it could be altered to work with Freelance.   I like the random factor, but I want some valid reason for high bids as well.


- Furro

Title: Re: Freelance DKP
Post by: Thewun on February 10, 2009, 02:09:38 AM

Quote

 

DKP Gain, Loss & Decay

DKP Gains:

DKP Gain Formula is:

1 + ( lifetime_attendance/100)[ hour_value ( total_hours ) + trash_clearing + attendance_check ]

[1 + ( lifetime_attendance/100)][ hour_value ( total_hours ) + trash_clearing + attendance_check ]  Use that instead.  

The newcomer bonus, LRA = 100, is an insufficient incentive.  The DKP gain a person is going to get from one raid is so vastly overshadowed by a veteran's current total that the newcomer bonus will look like nothing.

Item Cost

Item Cost Formula:   [(hit_points + mana) / 2 ] / [20 + focus_value1, 2, 3...]

[(hit_points + mana) / 2  + focus_value1, 2, 3...] / [20]
Use something like this instead.  As focus_value increases the item cost will increase.

Miscellaneous Items

Items listed here will be distributed via normal /random 1000 methods.

• Key-Type Items

Key-type items, like the txevu door keys, are going to be needed later on in an event.  As such, we should only let people who will probably be on later to use that key.  This should be rare, but I can think of at least one instance where a key-type item will drop that we've not yet done.  These things shouldn't be random'd on.

Loot Distribution Proceedure

The fact that there's even a first pass will mean the newcomer will have no chance at winning anything other than stuff no one else wants.  Removing the 2nd pass will do nothing to alleviate this problem.  If the transitory phase mechanism is kept with some positive # marker, then there's a chance for a newcomer to win anything.  The higher the # marker the better the chance for him/her.  The lower the #, the better the chance for loot to be distributed via the DKP system, ie. distributed toward those that have spent time to make FL a better team.  The balance is delicate, but done correctly most people will be happy.

LRA:
The way this is currently worked out people who take a break from FL will get double penalized through slower DKP gain and suffer from DKP decay.  That means that he has less and less incentive to come back to FL if he takes a break.  It's ok to design a system that decays some of the buying power of people who take breaks, but when you couple it with the slower DKP gain formula(due to the LRA factor) you put people into a pit they cannot get out of.  This means that while you have strong incentive for retention, you have strong disincentive for someone to come back.

Using the 30-day RA instead you have incentive for people to raid in smaller 30-day blocks, but anyone who takes a break will only have to suffer smaller gains for 30 days starting when he gets back.  

Quote

Don't get me wrong here, I want to encourage spending of DKP.  However, at the same time, I feel we need to reward regulars for attendance.   The grace period factor is there for a reason also, to lessen the hurt before decay kicks in.  Keep in mind, this grace period can be adjusted upwards if it's felt by others as too low.  Lots of options we can do here to find a balance imo.

Attendance is already rewarded with DKP.  Continued attendance is rewarded through the RA modifier in the DKP gain formula.  That RA modifier doesn't have to be LRA.

Title: Re: Freelance DKP
Post by: Thewun on February 10, 2009, 02:21:19 AM

Actually, looking at that decay formula again it looks like the DKP decay isn't even a significant factor.

Quote

Decay Formula is:  current_dkp [ -0.1 (( total_attended_hours+grace)/running_total_hours)] + current_dkp

Quote

(( total_attended_hours+grace)/running_total_hours)

That part there will start to decrease in value as someone stays further and further away from FL.  When you multiply that with -.1, that product is a number that gets closer and closer to zero.  

Quote

current_dkp [ -0.1 (approaching 0)]

That's going to get closer to zero as well.

Quote

Decay Formula is:  0 + current_dkp

Finally the decay tends to do nothing the larger of a gap you have in your LRA.

Title: Re: Freelance DKP
Post by: Furro on February 10, 2009, 03:48:19 AM

Quote

Quote

 

DKP Gain, Loss & Decay

DKP Gains:

DKP Gain Formula is:

1 + ( lifetime_attendance/100)[ hour_value ( total_hours ) + trash_clearing + attendance_check ]

[1 + ( lifetime_attendance/100)][ hour_value ( total_hours ) + trash_clearing + attendance_check ]  Use that instead.  

The newcomer bonus, LRA = 100, is an insufficient incentive.  The DKP gain a person is going to get from one raid is so vastly overshadowed by a veteran's current total that the newcomer bonus will look like nothing.

The bracket correction you made was my bad form in typing the formula.  We talked about this already in chat.

I won't address the newcomer RA bonus issue, as you mentioned below and I agree, transitory remaining in effect with a good threshold will always give chance to newcomers for /random that night, but still earn dkp.

Quote

Quote

 

Item Cost

Item Cost Formula:   [(hit_points + mana) / 2 ] / [20 + focus_value1, 2, 3...]

[(hit_points + mana) / 2  + focus_value1, 2, 3...] / [20]
Use something like this instead.  As focus_value increases the item cost will increase.

The formula works a little better.  This will be difficult to work out meaningful base values.  I realise I'm only covering a few variables such as hp/m and focus.  Nothing such as AC/heroics or anything is factored in.  Something to work on or search around and see how other guilds calculate it.

Quote

Quote

Miscellaneous Items

Items listed here will be distributed via normal /random 1000 methods.

• Key-Type Items

Key-type items, like the txevu door keys, are going to be needed later on in an event.  As such, we should only let people who will probably be on later to use that key.  This should be rare, but I can think of at least one instance where a key-type item will drop that we've not yet done.  These things shouldn't be random'd on.

I agree.  There is a clause in there to address future changes.  We have in the past had areas where I looted pieces required to spawn instances, such as the Tacvi signet.  This is something we'll have to address prior to reaching the targets, but it's good to have it brought up in this discussion too.

Quote

Loot Distribution Proceedure

The fact that there's even a first pass will mean the newcomer will have no chance at winning anything other than stuff no one else wants.  Removing the 2nd pass will do nothing to alleviate this problem.  If the transitory phase mechanism is kept with some positive # marker, then there's a chance for a newcomer to win anything.  The higher the # marker the better the chance for him/her.  The lower the #, the better the chance for loot to be distributed via the DKP system, ie. distributed toward those that have spent time to make FL a better team.  The balance is delicate, but done correctly most people will be happy.

I agree here, keeping some form of tranisitory system in place with a proper threshold, should work.

The /random to determine which system is used can be done on an event basis.  If we hit multiple targets in the evening, still opens chances for /random to be applied and benefits newcomers.  Again, they would still earn DKP too in the process regardless.

Quote

LRA:
The way this is currently worked out people who take a break from FL will get double penalized through slower DKP gain and suffer from DKP decay.  That means that he has less and less incentive to come back to FL if he takes a break.  It's ok to design a system that decays some of the buying power of people who take breaks, but when you couple it with the slower DKP gain formula(due to the LRA factor) you put people into a pit they cannot get out of.  This means that while you have strong incentive for retention, you have strong disincentive for someone to come back.

Using the 30-day RA instead you have incentive for people to raid in smaller 30-day blocks, but anyone who takes a break will only have to suffer smaller gains for 30 days starting when he gets back.  

30 day RA seems to be the way to go then.  I'll try and look into the calculations for this and post them here for some input.



- Furro

Title: Re: Freelance DKP
Post by: Furro on February 10, 2009, 10:47:26 PM

  
Made various changes, view the changelog for reference.

Moved the draft to first post, so it's easier to find without having to dig through the thread.



- Furro

Title: Re: Freelance DKP
Post by: frostfox on February 11, 2009, 05:56:16 PM

OK .. please for one excuse my grammar and spelling i pay little attention to it and just try to type as fast as i can..

that being said .. while i do agree that DKP is fair based on attendance i fear this is a bad idea. Not for myself i could care less if attain gear at the raids One my guild and friends have worked their tails off helping me with various items and such and i am very happy and satisfied with what i am wearing. the ocastional upgrade for me is a good thing but not why i raid. I raid to have fun and spend time with people and to enjoy that aspect of the game. Cop will continue to encourage its members to attend freelance as a way to experiance higher content then we as a guild can currently offer.

However this is why i worry about this .. i have seen a lot of good comments going but from the same folks over and over again.. now the day furro mentioned this in the channel i didnt' see any of the positive comments i am seeing here. i saw tons of negative comments about people not coming anymore. while i do beleive freelance has a good amount of loyal people who love to raid many of them not needing the gear that we are even doing in sof. i see many known high end raiders. But we can't hold to many raids when numbers drop to low. and i am worried that folks that do show up for the chance to win some part of gear through rolls and such make a good number of the raiders. we had consistantly gone over the ideas of diff loot systems in cop and come back to the same conclusion instituting something like DKP .. would cause us to loose numbers. I want to raid and i dont' want freelance to loose so many that the team won't be able to do what it has set its sites on. so bottom line is i am concerned with numbers.

I know time will tell the outcome. so i guess i will wait for it.

Title: Re: Freelance DKP
Post by: Furro on February 11, 2009, 08:22:04 PM

  
After careful thought over the last few days, I'm removing the formula for calculating DKP earnings.  The "Points per hour" approach in a way, rewards failure, and it actually encourages people to work slowly, to gain more points.   This isn't something I want to promote.  The other issue with hourly, is maintenance.  It would be extremely mickey mouse to accurately log /who outputs hourly in a zone.  It can be parsed, but it's totally up to the logger (me), to hit a hotkey with /who output and markers every hour on the hour.   Even adding in a 5 min grace period to account for LD'ers or those out of zone due to death/RIP elapsed timers, wouldn't result in accurate counts.  There are numerous other reasons I can get into why this won't work how it's setup.


Dynamic DKP Earning

Instead of "Points per hour", I'm considering a more dynamic approach to earning DKP.   Points earned based on the total loot distribution value divided by total raid members in attendance.  For example a 35 person raid, distributing loot worth 500 DKP total would mean each person in attendance receives approximately 14 DKP.  If the same raid had 54 in attendance, each person earned 9 DKP.

Formula: [ bounty_total / raid_attendance ]

Note:  bounty_total is dynamic, that means constantly changing.  Covered in section below under ' Dynamic DKP Spending'  with fixed minimum opening bid value per item.

Example 1:

Bounty Total: 500 DKP
Max minimum Bounty Total: 40 DKP (that's 10 DKP per item, 4 items)

Raid Attendance: 35
Win DKP Earned: 14
Fail DKP Earned: 1

Fail calculation:

= (40/35)
=  1.14


Dynamic DKP Spending

Lets have raiders decide the value of items, based on their desire to have it.

All items start open bid at 10 DKP

3 rounds of bidding.   Going once, twice, sold.

All done in /rs open bid war.  No ceiling, but you can't bid more then you have.



A few observations to consider.  Using base value for items as the starting point, we let bid wars decide DKP earnings for the night.  This can be good and bad, but it's totally self sustaining and requires much less overhead (ie, me figuring out item values across multiple tiers and slots).  On the same note, no item decay has to be figured out over time, as players demand will solve that through bid wars.

With minimum opening bid per item being a fixed value, we establish a bounty total for use in determining DKP earnings on event failures.  An example is already shown above in the DKP earnings section.


DKP Hoarding

Now, on to the other issue, to prevent hoarding DKP.  We want people to spend DKP, even on little upgrades.  How about a DKP Tax.  Keep it simple, for every 1 DKP you have, ensues a tax of 0.5%.  So, someone with 150 points, would pay 75% more for an item.

Example:

Player_A: 150 DKP holdings
Item Cost: 20 DKP
Player_A Cost: 35 DKP

Calculations:

150 (0.5) = 75
20 (0.75) = 15

This is just 75% of the bid price 20 DKP.


This is actually something we could factor in after bid wars, and adjust it in the standings.  People would feel the pinch if they started banking large amounts of DKP.  300 DKP banked, you'd be paying 150% more for items.  Also keep in mind, we can set thresholds here even, so it doesn't penalize low DKP holders.


MIA Players

On the topic of inactive DKP holders, I've been trying to come up with a way to decay DKP fairly.  I guess fair is subjective, and in this regard, I considering the following format:

For every 16 Freelance raids held, a person must have attendance at any 3.

That's under 20% Raid Attendance, before DKP decay will kick in.  Not a high percent at all imo.



Comments greatly appreciated.  Thanks

- Furro

Title: Re: Freelance DKP
Post by: Lisard on February 11, 2009, 08:53:18 PM

heres my view Blahblahblah yadda yadda...

if you wanna make it even. Just Make DKP by month or any set date really Start everyone out at like 50dkp, then they gain dkp per raid like 5dkp or someoffwall number then by the Set date Above if you have not spent your DKP you are reset to 50dkp
 so:

lets say you set the Dkp reset date  every 2 months, thats roughly 8 raids a month total of 16 raids.
Everyone starts out at 50dkp.
Every raid is Worth 5dkp.
thats a max DKP per two months of 80dkp+50DKp u start with= 130dkp.
if you do not spend u 130 dkp by the end of the 2 months you reset to 50dkp.


this keeps it fair and even and everyone has dkp to spend!
Again these are just example numbers u can set it to anythign really i suppose.

Title: Re: Freelance DKP
Post by: Furro on February 12, 2009, 03:54:03 AM

  
Made various chanages.  Changelog updated for reference.



- Furro

Title: Re: Freelance DKP
Post by: Furro on February 12, 2009, 08:17:16 PM

  
Various changes made to the draft.  Reference the changelog for details as needed.


- Furro

Title: Re: Freelance DKP
Post by: Poddo on February 13, 2009, 03:25:39 AM

After reading some more here are the issues I see coming up.   One this new change seems to be more rigid and more strict than what I always saw Freelance being.  Freelance was always awesome for being not your typical raid group.  There is no official membership,  people come and go as they see can.  Raids  were either larger or small.  Now with the new rules coming into effect I can only see two things happening:

1 Attendance goes up as  DKPs are the most fair and you have regular membership
2 Attendance horribly drops as DKPs require a time commitment that before did not matter.

With the addition of DKPS you might as well make up an application process and start recording members and  going through that crap.   I keep reading the different changes and ideas and  yes  this sounds  great for a full raiding team.   I just never viewed Freelance as that.  Sure there are the regular guys that I have seen at every raid but I also see different toons too.  

Like I said DKPs are the most fair and I do like them but also require alot of work and time that may burn out leadership as it can be a pain in the ass.

If I had the time I would join a raid team where I could  raid 4-5 times a week as I surpass most raid team requirements. I dont have that kinda of time and enjoy raiding when I can so I pop in from time to time to get that fix out of the way.  I missed out on  finishing Demiplane and Death Knell as  I  was real busy with school and work.  Recently I was able to see  BMK and Bimbo and  enjoyed it much even though I lost more xp than I gained during Bimbo.  

So far I see very few people  say   " Yay lets do this"  or post  "NO  I think its a terrible idea"    Maybe a poll or People should speak up.  I worry this could be the end of a good thing on fennin ro.  I see the good and the bad of this change and do hope that attendance goes up.  


My biggest suggestion is the KISS philosophy which is  Keep It Simple Stupid.  The simpler the better the more  complicaticated this the worse things will be and attendance lost.  These are my concerns and my raid attendance will be the same as ever.  I will attend when I can  whether I get DKPs or get to /random.  My attendance is low compared to most but I still follow you guys when  I am not here.  I look to see what you killled or didnt kill.

Well there are my thoughts

Regards
Poddo

Title: Re: Freelance DKP
Post by: Ceelan on February 13, 2009, 10:13:04 PM

I do not understand how the bidding works?  From reading some of the posts, it sounds like the high bid in each round is kept secret.  In round 1, everyone bids.  I got that.  But at this point I think everyone should be told what the high bid is so they can make an educated bid for round 2.  Same thing applies to round 3.

Also, where will I be able to find/how will I know my accumulated DKP for bidding purposes?

Title: Re: Freelance DKP
Post by: Qonamderlo on February 14, 2009, 02:15:49 PM

Quote

 

Instead of "Points per hour", I'm considering a more dynamic approach to earning DKP.   Points earned based on the total loot distribution value divided by total raid members in attendance.  For example a 35 person raid, distributing loot worth 500 DKP total would mean each person in attendance receives approximately 14 DKP.  If the same raid had 54 in attendance, each person earned 9 DKP.

Formula: [ bounty_total / raid_attendance ]

This is something I agree with 100% and is also how i ran my DKP years back. really it is one of the easier ways of distributing DKP and is also very understandable and fair to all.

Quote

DKP Hoarding

Now, on to the other issue, to prevent hoarding DKP.  We want people to spend DKP, even on little upgrades.  How about a DKP Tax.  Keep it simple, for every 1 DKP you have, ensues a tax of 0.5%.  So, someone with 150 points, would pay 75% more for an item.

Example:

Player_A: 150 DKP holdings
Item Cost: 20 DKP
Player_A Cost: 35 DKP

Calculations:

150 (0.5) = 75
20 (0.75) = 15

This is just 75% of the bid price 20 DKP.

Now i do not like DKP hoarding just as much as the next person, and i feel for you trying to come up with a solution to prevent this w/out making anyone upset or discontent. there are all kinds of issues with raising prices for people with higher DKP. example being if someone has to spend 45DKP on an item that was being sold for 20dkp may cause frustration. I think maybe a lower percentage base of .25% would suffice in knocking down the DKP of the higher ranking characters. Still the problem with a percentage base is the higher the DKP the higher the Amount and this may very well be your point but i think maybe a SET number for 100 dkp, 200 DKP etc etc would be more efficient. Continue to increase by a value of 2.5 DKP per tier... each tier containing 100DKP.. (of course you could use any number as a per tier multiplier i was just using 2.5 as an example).

Tier 1 - 100-199dkp (2.5)
Tier 2 - 200-299dkp (5.0)
Tier 3 - 300-399dkp (7.5)
Etc. Etc.

so if your in tier 1 and purchase an item for 20 DKP it would cost you 22.5 DKP. if your in tier 2 and purchase a 20 dkp item it would cost you 25 dkp. still if someone is going to hoard DKP they will do it in almost any case no matter what the scale to prevent it. i do believe it is a valiant idea to want to keep the whole on equal terms but i think the easiest way to do that is to stick with the DKP and everything will be fair.

the point of making it a set number instead of a percentage is merely for better understanding by others. as well as being easier to track.


now on a side note, in a DKP standard raid team people need to understand that you need to be patiant, don't become angry when you dont win because odds are the event will be raided again, and even if its not higher content will be in the future.

Quote

My biggest suggestion is the KISS philosophy which is  Keep It Simple Stupid.

I agree and i do think that is what furro is working towards, he is wanting input on how to make everything fair and also making adjustments so that everyone will understand how the DKP is going to work.

Quote

So far I see very few people  say   " Yay lets do this"  or post  "NO  I think its a terrible idea"

I for one am completely on board for this idea, while randoming was a great thing and yes many people became interested because of it, it is also a nightmare for trying to progress. people end up coming for only raids where they want an item and when they win they dissappear. DKP will fix that issue and enable freelance to go deeper in progression. these raids are still open raids they are just a little more fair now.

Title: Re: Freelance DKP
Post by: Furro on February 15, 2009, 03:19:48 AM

  
Various changes made to the draft.  Reference the changelog for details as needed.


- Furro

Title: Re: Freelance DKP
Post by: Furro on February 15, 2009, 03:30:51 AM

Quote

I do not understand how the bidding works?  From reading some of the posts, it sounds like the high bid in each round is kept secret.  In round 1, everyone bids.  I got that.  But at this point I think everyone should be told what the high bid is so they can make an educated bid for round 2.  Same thing applies to round 3.

With the basic outline of the system refined, I added the bidding proceedure and other details for clarity.

I know we talked about bidding already in game, but I just wanted to quote your post so others know this area has been addressed.

Quote

Also, where will I be able to find/how will I know my accumulated DKP for bidding purposes?

I didn't add a link the to main FL site yet.  However, you can view your Current DKP holdings and other info using this link (http://www.eqfreelance.net/eqdkp)

I'll add the link to the draft as well.



- Furro

Title: Re: Freelance DKP
Post by: Furro on February 19, 2009, 10:06:00 PM

  
Extensive changes made to the draft.  Reference the changelog for details as needed.

The DKP Tracking system has been intergrated into the main Freelance website.

At this stage, all our loot policies and related details are covered in the document.   Please give it a read over again to make sure I didn't miss something.  Thanks.

My hope is to wrap this document up soon, and incorporate it into the main Freelance site over the next few days.


 
- Furro

Title: Re: Freelance DKP
Post by: Furro on February 22, 2009, 05:06:10 AM

  
Incorporated the system into the main Freelance site.  Added appropriate links to the document above.

Added the EQDKP Database link to this document as well.




- Furro

Title: Re: Freelance DKP & Random
Post by: Furro on April 19, 2009, 07:58:28 PM

  
We've been entering DKP for a bit now, and it's close to the point where I'd like to start the 2nd state Bidding portion.

Before we do this, there's two issues I need to address:

1)  Ties between Bidders

To be as simple as possible, I'll give an example:

- Item opens at 10 DKP.
- It goes through some rounds of bidding.

Comes to a bid round where two (or more) players all have equal Current DKP holdings, and have reached their bid limits.

Who wins the item?


Answer:  I'm thinking it should fall back on our /random ruleset between only the tied bidders in this case.  With the stipulation of whoever wins the /random, their last bid (ie, maximum Current DKP holdings), will be the cost of the item.

This way, it's not based on RA/LRA or anything locking out short attendance players.  

With the cost still having a DKP assigned (based on bidders), it can prevent abuse/collusion of max bidding (with those of equal holdings), for an ends to obtain an item at a low DKP cost.

Even though this scenerio may not come up often or ever,  I want the policy in place for if/when it does.


2)  No bidders on an item

Fairly straight forward question here.  What if we open bidding, and no one bids on the item?

Answer:  If no bids are made after three rounds.  We should 'open to all' the item for bid again, to those who have won an item already.


3) No bidders on an 'open to all' item

So, the item is open to all, for whatever reason, no one bids on it.  What now?

Answer: Fall back on /random ruleset, with normal associated DKP base value applied to winner of the item.



It's going to take some patience at the start of this bidding state.  As not everyone is used to it, and it's alot more work for me to do during the raid.  What I'm going to work through also, is updating our /rs Loot Rules, to reflect the 2 states.   Just how I go over /random 1k, I want it absolutely clear how we do DKP, so everyone is informed.

Your insight is always welcome, and appreciated.  I'll leave this posting for a week to see any feedback before implementing it into the DKP system.

If you see something I haven't covered in the DKP system, please post about it here in this thread so it can be address.


Thanks for your time,

- Furro

Title: Re: Freelance DKP & Random
Post by: Furro on May 10, 2009, 08:52:38 PM

  
In reference to my above reply, I've incorporated the following into the Freelance Hybrid DKP System:

Added sub-sections 'Ties between Bidders', 'No bidders on an item', under section 'DKP Loot Ruleset'

Quote

Ties between Bidders
 
Where two (or more) players have equal Current DKP holdings, and have reached their maximum limits for bidding (ie, they bid all their DKP).

In this situation, a winner is deteremined via /random ruleset between only the tied bidders.  The item cost used is the tied bid value.

Tied Bidders Format:

Tied Maximum Bids! - ONLY: < player_names >, /random 1000 now on < item_link > for < tied_bid_value > DKP!

Last call (tied bidders only) on < item_link >, for < tied_bid_value > DKP!

./random CLOSED on < item_link >

Congrats < player_name > on < item_link > for  < tied_bid_value > DKP.


No bidders on an item
 
This situation comes into play when three bid rounds elapse, with no player bids on the item.

In this case, the item is up for bid again, as "Open to All", and the normal bid round format continues.

If an item "Open to All" has no bidders following three rounds, then a winner is deteremined via /random ruleset.

- Furro

Title: Re: Freelance DKP & Random
Post by: Furro on May 18, 2009, 07:11:29 PM

  
The following modifications are in effect, and incorporated into the Hybrid DKP System.  I'm mostly clarifying sections to include the addition of item categories.  All changes are referenced in the changelog as well.

Section Changes

Terminology

Term: "Open to All" changed to "OPEN" - rephrased for clarity, no rule changes made.  Revised as:  "OPEN" -  Items tied to a category, that have gone through a first pass for distribution, where no player interest was declared.  These items are still subject to the DKP cost attached.

Term: "Regular Loot" rephrased for clarity and category association.  Revised as: "Regular Loot" items tied to the "LOOT" category, are items that count towards your loot for the night.

* Note: The terminology changes above are reflected throughout the document.



Loot Distribution States

Change: Activated hybrid state clause as follows:

* Effective: Friday, May 22, 2009 - The hybrid states portion of our DKP system is now in effect from this point forward.  If you're not familiar with our system, please click on the Loot Rules (http://www.eqfreelance.net/basics/loot_rules.html) link for details.



Random Loot Ruleset

Sub-sections: Description, Stipulations, Exceptions, Random Ruleset Procedure, Disclaimer[/b]

Description: Rephrased for clarity, no rule changes made - When in this state, all applicable category items are distributed via Random 1000 Ruleset.  Highest number wins; with one random per item, per "Real Life" person; and limited to one item win a night.

Stipulations: Amendments and rephrased for clarity, no rule changes made.

• AUG and LOOT categorized items, are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.

    

• OPEN items tied to a category, are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.

Exceptions: "OPEN" items still count as your item in that category for the night, and are available to anyone, including prior winners.

Random Ruleset Procedure: Category amendment within the procedure.  No changes to ruleset.

Disclaimer: Rephrased for clarity as follows - Any category items being distributed in this fashion are done so on a per item basis.  Any item that does not fall under the Random 1000 Ruleset is made clear at the time of distribution.  These items are most likely, but not always, covered in the Miscellaneous Items section.



DKP Loot Ruleset

Sub-sections: Description, Stipulations, Exceptions, Bid War Procedure, Disclaimer

Description: Amended and rephrased for clarity, no rule changes made.  -- When in this state, all applicable category items are distributed via DKP Loot Ruleset.

Stipulations: Amended and rephrased for clarity, no rule changes made.

• LOOT categorized items, are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.

    

• OPEN items tied to a category, are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.

Exceptions: "OPEN" items still count as your item in that category for the night, and are available to anyone, including prior winners.

Bid War Procedure: Category amendment within the procedure.  No changes to ruleset.

Disclaimer: Rephrased for clarity as follows - Any category items being distributed in this fashion are done so on a per item basis.  Any item that does not fall under the DKP Loot Ruleset is made clear at the time of distribution.  These items are most likely, but not always, covered in the Miscellaneous Items section.



Miscellaneous Items - Rephrased for clarity, and category tags added.  

Changes as follows:

This section covers category and non-category items distributed via normal Random 1000 Ruleset.

      1       2       3       3      

ITEM		CATEGORY
Augmentation		AUG
Rune for spell / melee disc		RUNE
Progression Flag		N/A
Key-Type Item		N/A

Note: Any item listed here is subject to change.  N/A denotes Not Applicable.

Section Addition

Item Categories

The purpose here is to categorize items dropped on Freelance raids for distribution, and incorporate the second pass clause "OPEN" more effectively.  There are no changes to the rules associated with items.  Each "Real Life" person is allowed to participate, winning one AUG, LOOT and RUNE item per night.  "OPEN" items still count as your item in that category for the night, and are available to anyone, including prior winners.

Incorporated into the document, as follows: Items categorized in this section, fall within the confines of the Freelance Hybrid DKP System.  Each "Real Life" person is allowed to participate, winning one AUG, LOOT and RUNE item per night.  "OPEN" items still count as your item in that category for the night, and are available to anyone, including prior winners.


   1       2       ]3       ]

CATEGORY		DEFINITION		RULESET		DKP BASE
AUG		Augmentation Item		Random 1000		10
LOOT		Regular Loot Item		Random 1000 or DKP		10
RUNE		Spell / Melee Disc		Random 1000		0

Examples not included:

Example, 1st pass on item:  ./random 1k on < item_link > - AUG
Example, 2nd pass on item: ./random 1k on < item_link > - AUG OPEN

TODO List:

May change main section titles to avoid confusion as to LOOT categories and the term 'loot' within the titles. ie:

      1       1       1      

SECTION		POTENTIAL RENAME
Loot Distribution States		Item Distribution States
Random Loot Ruleset		Random 1000 Ruleset
DKP Loot Ruleset		DKP Ruleset

Title: Re: Freelance DKP & Random
Post by: Furro on May 21, 2009, 08:23:01 PM

  
Updated the main site pages to reflect the recent changes outlined.

In addition, made the following document adjustments to section titles as outlined below:

      1       11       1      

OLD NAME		NEW NAME
Loot Distribution States		Item Distribution States
Loot Distribution States Procedure		Item Distribution States Procedure
Random Loot Ruleset		Random 1000 Ruleset
DKP Loot Ruleset		DKP Ruleset

Title: Re: Freelance DKP & Random
Post by: Furro on June 01, 2009, 12:00:36 AM

  
Quoting this from the main page update:

Quote

DKP spending is going to be monitored during raids.  I've added onto my loot spreadsheet to pull DKP data, and subtract purchases as they are made.  This will also include winnings while in Random Ruleset.  This will enable an accurate picture of someones Current DKP throughout the raid night.

The issue with the running tally however, is the FLDKP database will not reflect the changes, and the FLBoT pulls the info from this database.  So for example, someone may start the raid at 20 DKP, win an item via Random, and want to bid later on some item of interest.  When that person queries the database, it shows 20 DKP still.  In fact, their actual Current DKP is 10.  Anyone who bids, I check their actual bidding power via my running tally spreadsheet.  I'm working on a way to for the bot to pull actual current DKP from the tally.  In the meantime, be aware and subtract your winnings from your current DKP.

I'll shorten the wording down and add this into the document sometime this week hopefully.  There's no change to how DKP is being done here, it's just related to DKP spending during raids, and the tracking of it.


DKP TODO:

- Add N/A to the Item Category table to identify items not associated with any costs.

Title: Re: Freelance DKP & Random
Post by: Furro on June 15, 2009, 03:11:13 AM

  
Updated the main site and relevent pages to reflect the recent changes outlined.  

Quote

 

Item Categories

Items categorized in this section, fall within the confines of the Freelance Hybrid DKP System.  Each "Real Life" person is allowed to participate, winning one AUG, LOOT and RUNE item per night.  "OPEN" items still count as your item in that category for the night, and are available to anyone, including prior winners.

   1       2       ]3       ]3       ]

CATEGORY		DEFINITION		RULESET		DKP BASE
AUG		Augmentation Item		Random 1000		10
LOOT		Regular Loot Item		Random 1000 or DKP		10
RUNE		Spell / Melee Disc		Random 1000		0
N/A		Miscellaneous Items		Random 1000		0

- Added N/A Category to the above.  Updated the relevent areas.



DKP Tax Section

Added:

* Important: Tax is not in effect at this time.  We're still in the early stages of this DKP system, and having tax in place as we're seeding the system is counter productive.  We may need to tweak with the tax rate also, but for now numbers are needed in the system to see how everything works out.



DKP Gain & Loss Section

Quote

DKP Gain & Loss

This area explains the factors that relate to earning and spending DKP.


Dynamic DKP Earning

DKP is earned based on the total value of loot distributed, divided by the average number of attendees, on a per event or target basis.

Formula: [ bounty_total / raid_attendance ]

Note:  bounty_total is dynamic, that means constantly changing.  Covered in section below under 'Dynamic DKP Spending'  with fixed minimum opening bid value per item.

All totals rounded to the nearest whole number.

Example 1:

Bounty Total: 500 DKP
Max minimum Bounty Total: 40 DKP (that's 10 DKP per item, 4 items)

Raid Attendance: 35
Win DKP Earned: 14
Fail DKP Earned: 1

Fail calculation:

= (40/35)
=  1.14

Changed: "average" to "total", in the above quoted area, highlighted in red.
Added: ', on a per event or target basis', highlighted as green above.

Reason: Average requires multiple DKP checks during an event.  This isn't feasible for me, and at some point early into the DKP calculating I stopped using averages and switched to total attendees.  It didn't affect anything, since our DKP gains were so tiny, everything was working out to 1 DKP basically.  However, I want this in place now, especially with loot states in full effect, to avoid future clarity issues.

- Changed wording in Terminology section, for term: 'Raid Attendance', relates to above change.


Raid Attendance Section:


This is mostly a clarity adjustment.  Related to the above earnings change.

Quote

Raid Attendance Procedure

Each person's raid attendance, is the determining factor as to whether they earn DKP and the amount for any particular raid.

Raid Attendance checks are done twice:  At the start and finish.

To receive full DKP earnings, you must be in attendance for the entire raid.  That means, from start to finish.

Missing any of the two checks for raid attendance, results in half earnings for that particular raid.

Changed to:

Raid Attendance Procedure

Each person's raid attendance, is the determining factor as to whether they earn DKP and the amount for any particular raid.


DKP Check Procedure

• At start - when clearing trash, and/or prepping for an event or target.
• At event or target engage.
• At finish - when raid is done for the night.

Note:  Start/Finish checks are always 1 DKP.

Title: Re: Freelance DKP & Random
Post by: roarecho on June 15, 2009, 02:19:49 PM

hey, raids have been going great and the system is evolving nicely

a couple points i want to bring up though so here comes my rant

one, peeps need to start bidding /randoming on items a small upgrade is better than nothing

two, anyway we can speed up the loot distribution ?

some ways to do that , begining of raid , all who want runes roll .. make list and have thr runes predistributed.

calling for loot rolls, can we go random on item X , item X closed ,, no last call

ffa ( loot  and aug ) items should have a min dkp associated ,, say 4 dkp

dkp bidding ,, 30 second timer interval, like in chess matchs ,, player A bids ,, player B has 30 seconds to respond or Player A wins item.

raid start times ,, is there a fixed raid start time we could plan for? i thought it was 7 , but it seems things are going by then now

Title: Re: Freelance DKP & Random
Post by: Furro on June 19, 2009, 05:10:28 PM

  

Quote

hey, raids have been going great and the system is evolving nicely

a couple points i want to bring up though so here comes my rant

one, peeps need to start bidding /randoming on items a small upgrade is better than nothing

I agree, small upgrades are worth it.  I think too many people compare the drops we've been getting against SoD group gear.  With respects to the SoD visible armor, using TSS is hard to justify.  Providing the person comparing is already wearing SoD armor.  However, for those who are not, it's perfectly justified to pickup a decent interim item in the meantime.  

I fully expected non-visible FC/AG items to be of value still for many.  Especially rings/ears and augments.  The entire point of doing FC/AG is to gear en masse.  Spreading alot of items, even of minor upgrades, over as many people as possible, yields greater overall power gains for Freelance as a force.

Quote

two, anyway we can speed up the loot distribution ?

some ways to do that , begining of raid , all who want runes roll .. make list and have thr runes predistributed.

I track the loot, and make adjustments.   The rune demand is temporary.  I've already lowered their category to reflect lower demand.  Even with them at N/A OPEN atm, it saved us time last weekend, not having to do two passes (from /ran, one per, to open right away).  Once they reach the FFA point, that will shave more time off our loot distribution.

The issue I see with ./ran lists are they're done at the beginning of the raid. Therefore, any late comers are locked out of the list.  At least with ./ran, aside from demand aspects, someone can arrive later in the raid and still walk away with something of value to them.  It's important we spread the loot around evenly.

Quote

calling for loot rolls, can we go random on item X , item X closed ,, no last call

The purpose of Last call is to draw attention to those who may have missed the initial ./ran message for whatever reason.  The thing is, it wouldn't actually shorten the ./ran that much, as I try and do ./ran, last call, and ./close within under a minute.  Sometimes I expedite it, when there's clearly no interest in the item.  I try and maintain at least a 10-15 second interval between each call to account for lag etc.

I'm reluctant to remove the last call at this point.  I feel more comfortable with a warning system in place before I do ./closings.  This is more of a CYA angle for me, for example: someone thinking I closed a ./ran after I saw a friend with a high ./ran.  At least the "Last call" is there with a delay after to give someone a chance still before the ./close 10 seconds or so later.

Quote

ffa ( loot  and aug ) items should have a min dkp associated ,, say 4 dkp

This was brought up a few weeks ago by Bumkus I believe also, on a related spin.  The issue he raised was in regards to class specific items, and only one class in attendance.  The person in question could simply wait for the process to reach FFA, knowing no one would be able to bid/ran because of the lack of other classes.  Therefore, they would win the item by default for free.

Class specific items are rare now, at least beyond TSS.  However, with the content we're doing there are still a few lingering.  Fortunately the instances of single class/items present have been rare, and I chalk it up as luck,  that the person was in attendance and obtained a freebie in that respect.

Imposing a blanket FFA DKP hit promotes a reluctance to loot anything FFA, solely because of the associated cost (even if the item is a minor upgrade).  I realize one could counter point with "if it was an upgrade, they should have bid/ran'd for it".  Although true, I don't feel we should be taxing people for looting rot items.  I'm sure those who pickup FFA drops are gaining, and as a result we are also, in overall power.  If they pickup a few freebies, and contribute better as a result, they'll eventually be paying for future upgrades that are in greater demand.

This issue I believe will pan out as we progress beyond TSS.  I'm open to discussing it further if needed.

Quote

dkp bidding ,, 30 second timer interval, like in chess matchs ,, player A bids ,, player B has 30 seconds to respond or Player A wins item.

This is actually how the procedure is at the moment.  There is a 30 second bid window.  The moment someone bids, the window is reset.  This is to counter those who try and wait until the last second to bid.

As a side note, there is a closing bid procedure (going once, twice, closed).  I've been tweaking this and reducing the windows between each.  Something in the range of 10-15 seconds should be sufficient.


Expediting loot distribution is something I'm always conscious of during raids.  Ideally, I'd like loot to be done within a 5-8 minute window.  Those who are not bidding/randoming should be directed towards the next target and prepping.  However, this isn't always possible.  I've been trying to address this issue, by seeking out others to fill authority roles which would help alleviate these slowdowns.

Quote

raid start times ,, is there a fixed raid start time we could plan for? i thought it was 7 , but it seems things are going by then now

7pm EST, 6pm CST, 4pm PST are the times.  This is another area of late that I'm trying to pickup the slack on.  I've been pushing ahead regardless of our current numbers in FLRaids the last week or so.  My goal is to be inside the instance by 7:30 PM EST.  Last weekend, I reached that on Friday/Saturday.

People should be aware, I do DKP checks when we start inside the instance.  Therefore, it pays to be on time imo.

Title: Re: Freelance DKP & Random
Post by: Furro on June 29, 2009, 07:00:14 PM

  
The adjustment below is to address class specific items:

The DKP/Random procedure will be bypassed for class specific items, that fall under any category, when only one person of said class is in attendance.  The item will be categorized at that time only, by the Raid Leader, as FFA.

Reason: Apparently, there are more items beyond TBS+ content that are class specific then I had realised.  As a result, it's necessary to make this change to our hybrid system.

Title: Re: Freelance DKP & Random
Post by: Dammar on July 03, 2009, 02:53:33 PM

I know my opinion may not matter at this point, but I do like the dkp option.  I use to spend a lot of time raiding year or so ago but finally just got discouraged. My dice always sucked and the only time I won appeared to be when no one else wanted what would improve my gear.  End result was that I was doing better in equipment improvements by not raiding.  

Now with the dkp system I may have a chance to actually get some decent gear.

Title: Re: Freelance DKP & Random
Post by: Furro on August 21, 2009, 07:57:11 PM

  
Minor tweaks relating to the item distribution procedure when either random/dkp rulesets are used.

Reasons:  To help expedite the distribution process, and reduce workload of person delegating loot.

Quote

 

Random 1000 Ruleset

Random Process Format:

./ran 1000 on < item_link >, - < category > GL!

[ approximately 30 second window for randoms ]

Last call on < item_link >, - < category >.  If you rolled at or above < highest number > send tell now!

./random CLOSED on < item_link >

Congrats < player_name > on < item_link > - < category > (their number rolled).

Random Process Completion:

Changed from: [ approximately 30 second window for randoms ]

Changed to: [ approximately 15 second window for randoms ]

Inserted timeframe interval following 'Last Call' statement: [ approximately 15 second window for randoms ]

Quote

   

DKP Ruleset

Bid War Procedure

Shown here is the bid process format, all done in /raidsay, including those bidding on items.

Taking bids on < item_link > - < category >.  Starting at 10 DKP!

[ approximately 30 second window for bids ]

< bid_amount > DKP is current high bid on < item_link > by < player_name >, GOING ONCE!

[ approximately 30 second window for additional bids ]

< bid_amount > DKP is current high bid on < item_link > by < player_name >, GOING TWICE!

[ approximately 30 second window for additional bids ]

Bidding CLOSED on < item_link > - < category >

Congrats < player_name > on < item_link > for < bid_amount > DKP!

Changed from:

< bid_amount > DKP is current high bid on < item_link > by < player_name >, GOING ONCE!
< bid_amount > DKP is current high bid on < item_link > by < player_name >, GOING TWICE!


Changed to:

< GOING [round] > at < HIGHEST DKP BID >

* where 'round' represents either 'ONCE' or 'TWICE'.

Example:  GOING ONCE at 20


Changed Bid Window Times from:

[ approximately 30 second window for bids ]
[ approximately 30 second window for additional bids ]


Changed to:

[ approximately 15 second window for bids ]
[ approximately 15 second window for additional bids ]

* This matches the same timeframe used under the 'Random Ruleset', 'Last Call' procedure.




Changelog updated:

- Adjusted timeframes and format under procedure, in sections: 'Random 1000 Ruleset', and 'DKP Ruleset'

Title: Re: Freelance DKP & Random
Post by: Furro on June 13, 2010, 07:35:39 PM

 

* Changelog Notes:

- Minor verbiage changes addressed below within the related process/procedural areas to reduce the amount of typing required.
- Reformatted areas for easier reading, by reducing bolded sections.

Quote

   

Random 1000 Ruleset

Random Process Format:

./ran 1000 on < item_link >, - < category > GL!

[ approximately 15 second window for randoms ]

Last call on < item_link >, - < category >.  If you rolled at or above < highest number > send tell now!

[ approximately 15 second window for randoms ]

./random CLOSED on < item_link >

Congrats < player_name > on < item_link > - < category > (their number rolled).

Changed the above to:


/ran 1000 on < item_link > - < category >, GL!

< approximately 15 second window for randoms >

Last call on < item_link > (15 seconds).

< approximately 15 second window for randoms >

./random CLOSED.

Congrats < player_name > on < item_link > (their number rolled).

Quote

DKP Ruleset

Bid War Procedure

Shown here is the bid process format, all done in /raidsay, including those bidding on items.

Taking bids on < item_link > - < category >.  Starting at 10 DKP!

[ approximately 15 second window for bids ]

< GOING ONCE > at < HIGHEST DKP BID >

[ approximately 15 second window for additional bids ]

< GOING TWICE > at < HIGHEST DKP BID >

[ approximately 15 second window for additional bids ]

Bidding CLOSED on < item_link > - < category >

Congrats < player_name > on < item_link > for < bid_amount > DKP!


Ties Between Bidders


Tied bids are resolved via Random 1000 Ruleset, between the tied bidders.  The item cost used is the tied bid value.

Tied Bidders Format:

Tied Maximum Bids! - ONLY: < player_names >, /random 1000 now on < item_link > for < tied_bid_value > DKP!

Last call (tied bidders only) on < item_link >, for < tied_bid_value > DKP!

./random CLOSED on < item_link >

Congrats < player_name > on < item_link > for  < tied_bid_value > DKP.

Changed the above to:


Shown here is the bid process format, all done in /raidsay, including those bidding on items. 

Taking bids on < item_link > - < category >.   Starting at 10 DKP!

< approximately 15 second window for bids >

< GOING ONCE > at < HIGHEST DKP BID >

< approximately 15 second window for additional bids >

< GOING TWICE > at < HIGHEST DKP BID >

< approximately 15 second window for additional bids >

Bidding CLOSED.

Congrats < player_name > on < item_link > for < bid_amount > DKP!


Ties Between Bidders

Tied bids are resolved via Random 1000 Ruleset, between the tied bidders.  The item cost used is the tied bid value.

Tied Bidders Format:

Tied Maximum Bids! - ONLY: < player_names >, /random 1000 now on < item_link > for < tied_bid_value > DKP!

Last call (tied bidders only) on < item_link >, for < tied_bid_value > DKP!

./random CLOSED

Congrats < player_name > on < item_link > for  < tied_bid_value > DKP.

Title: Re: Freelance DKP & Random
Post by: Furro on November 17, 2010, 06:27:38 PM

 
Loot System Changes

In order to aid in our progression efforts and strengthen us as a team, several changes/adjustements to the Freelance Loot System are necessary.


Overview

This is a brief overview, with details covered further below.

• 5 DKP cost associated with all RUNE Category items (Spell / Melee Discs).
• Key/Flag distribution via Random 1000, but limited to players with 20% Raid Attendance (based on Last 90 Days).
• Item Distribution State determination based on 70/30 (DKP/Random) odds.
• Weapon Trade-In option incorporated into LOOT OPEN category Items, regardless of EQ Character Class restrictions.

Details

Since these changes affect the Loot System, they must be documented.  This is the detail section of those changes.


FLDKP Database:

Trash table AUGs were being tracked in zero value DKP raids, tied to zones where the target raid event took place.  The problem of course, is these entries skewed Raid Attendance.

The solution was to re-enter the augs into raid events near the time they were looted, and ensure the player was in attendance first before doing the entry.  Each zero value DKP raid was then deleted afterwards.  This was a database change only, and no individual players DKP was altered/adjusted in the process. 

* Be aware: Trash table AUGs are NOT part of the chest bounty for an event, and therefore not taken into consideration when determining DKP earnings for said raid event.  The entries for Trash AUGs is merely for tracking purposes because they have an associated cost.


FL Site & Forum Loot Pages:

- Updated Loot sections on main FL site
- Updated Forum Loot System sticky posts
- Scheduled events posts updated (tables/etc).


FLBot Changes:

- DKP requests will now include RA% in response.

Quote

   

Item Distribution States

Freelances item distribution system has two states:  Random and DKP.  The state used at any given time is determined via random chance, with equal odds of it being either DKP or Random ruleset.

Changed above to:

Freelances item distribution system has two states:  Random and DKP.  The state used at any given time is determined via random chance, with odds of it being either DKP or Random ruleset.

Quote

Item Distribution State Procedure

Prior to distributing each loot bounty, the Raid Leader will issue a /random 1000.

A /random 1000 result greater than or equal to 500 will use DKP ruleset.
A /random 1000 result less than 500 will use normal /random 1000 ruleset.

Changed above to:

A /random 1000 result greater than or equal to 300 will use DKP ruleset.
A /random 1000 result less than 300 will use normal /random 1000 ruleset.

Quote

Item Categories

Items categorized in this section, fall within the confines of the Freelance Hybrid DKP System.  Each "Real Life" person is allowed to participate, winning one AUG, LOOT and RUNE item per night.  "OPEN" items still count as your item in that category for the night, and are available to anyone, including prior winners.


12]3]3]

CATEGORY		DEFINITION		RULESET		DKP BASE
AUG		Augmentation Item		Random 1000		10
LOOT		Regular Loot Item		Random 1000 or DKP		10
RUNE		Spell / Melee Disc		Random 1000		0
N/A		Miscellaneous Items		Random 1000		0

Changed above to:


12]3]3]

CATEGORY		DEFINITION		RULESET		DKP BASE
AUG		Augmentation Item		Random 1000		10
LOOT		Regular Loot Item		Random 1000 or DKP		10
RUNE		Spell / Melee Disc		Random 1000		5
N/A		Miscellaneous Items		Random 1000 & Raid Attendance		0

Quote

Random 1000 Ruleset

Stipulations

The following conditions are in play during the random ruleset:

• Strict /random format 0 - 1000
• One /random per item, per "Real Life" person
• One item win a night
• AUG and LOOT categorized items, are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.
• OPEN items tied to a category, are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.

N/A addition to Stipulations section required, as Key/Flag items fall under this category.

Changed above to:

Stipulations

The following conditions are in play during the random ruleset:

• Strict /random format 0 - 1000
• One /random per item, per "Real Life" person
• One item win a night
• AUG and LOOT categorized items, are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.
• N/A items may be subject to a Raid Attendance factor to determine eligibility for random.
• OPEN items tied to a category, are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.
• Items available for NPC Trade-In are distributed in the following order: LOOT, LOOT OPEN, LOOT OPEN (Classes: ALL).  These items are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.

Quote

DKP Ruleset

Stipulations

The following conditions are in play during the DKP ruleset:

• Strict Bid War format
• One bidder only, per "Real Life" person (no bidding on multiple boxed characters).
• One item win a night, per "Real Life" person.
• LOOT categorized items, are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.
• OPEN items tied to a category, are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.

Changed above to:

The following conditions are in play during the DKP ruleset:

• Strict Bid War format
• One bidder only, per "Real Life" person (no bidding on multiple boxed characters).
• One item win a night, per "Real Life" person.
• LOOT categorized items, are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.
• OPEN items tied to a category, are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.
• Items available for NPC Trade-In are distributed in the following order: LOOT, LOOT OPEN, LOOT OPEN (Classes: ALL).  These items are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.

CHANGELOG:

Tracking revisions here as usual.

- Item Distribution States changed from 50/50, to 70/30.
- Item Distribution State Procedure changed to reflect 70/30 adjustment
- Changed section Item Categories, table item Miscellaneous Item, added RA factor.
- Changed section Random 1000 Ruleset, sub-section Stipulations, added N/A items reference to factor in RA
- Changed section Random 1000 Ruleset, sub-section Stipulations, added NPC Trade-In procedure
- Changed section DKP Ruleset, sub-section Stipulations, added NPC Trade-In procedure

Title: Re: Freelance DKP & Random
Post by: Furro on December 21, 2010, 07:34:15 PM

 

Tie Bids
 
This is a rule change.

Change: Tie or Matched Bids are ONLY permitted when an individual's current DKP holdings are equal to the current bid at the time.

Reasons:

Tie bids are delaying the loot distribution process considerably when it occurs.

The main reason I kept ties in, was to maintain DKP purchasing power, regardless of current DKP holdings.  Without the use of exception clause(s), the easiest way to accomplish this was to allow tie bids.

Conclusion:

A "No Tie Bid" rule can work, as long as there is an exception clause in place to maintain DKP purchasing power.  The tactical loss of tie bids is minimal as far as I'm concerned, and not worth delaying the raid with a lengthy tie process, and random resolution.


For those interested, here's an example of DKP holdings affecting purchasing power I wrote up over a year ago while discussing this very issue internally:

Quoted Example:

Quote

 

DKP Holdings, doesn't reflect purchasing power:


Player_B has 16 Current DKP
Player_C has 15 Current DKP


Current high bid is 15 DKP by Player_B


Player_C wants to opt in, but if we don't allow tie bids, he cannot bid at all.

Although the player may have 15 DKP, its purchasing power is not 15 DKP.  In this situation, he'd need 16 DKP just for a chance to bid on the item valued at 15 DKP currently.   Is it fair, that an item valued at 15 DKP, is not purchasable, by someone with 15 DKP?

Player_C loses the bid, because he didn't have 16 DKP to bid with.  Player_B won, only because he chose to risk 15 DKP.


Using example above, with our current ruleset:

Player_C bids 15 DKP (all in!)
Player_B bids 16 DKP and wins.

I fail to see how spending 1 more DKP, is a hardship in this situation.  At least it gave the person with 15 DKP, a chance at spending his DKP on something of value to him.

Anyone who feels jaded by someone matching their bids, should utilize their DKP purchasing power more aggressively in my opinion.  If someone is trying to muscle me out of an item I want, I'll keep outbidding that person, until either I win; or reach my "personal limit".

That's what it comes down to btw.  Personal limits.  Most people set some sorta upper limit, as to how high they're willing to go.  It's their choice.  I don't feel people should get upset because someone else happens to have set the same limits.

Keep in mind also, those who "match" or "tie" bids, are risking the same amount of DKP.  They can't bid with DKP they don't have.

Quote

 

Players with equal Current DKP holdings

Fairly self explanatory.  It's not to say the outcome wouldn't be the same (random), but we'd need a rule to address it at the very least.

Example:

Player_A has 15 DKP
Player_B has 15 DKP


Both players bid and reach their ceiling.  It goes to /random.

Sections of the document must be modified to allow for this change.  All related pages on the main site must also be changed.

Quote

   

DKP Ruleset

Stipulations

The following conditions are in play during the DKP ruleset:

• Strict Bid War format

   

• One bidder only, per "Real Life" person (no bidding on multiple boxed characters).

   

• One item win a night, per "Real Life" person.

   

• LOOT categorized items, are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.

   

• OPEN items tied to a category, are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.

   

• Items available for NPC Trade-In are distributed in the following order: LOOT, LOOT OPEN, LOOT OPEN (Classes: ALL).  These items are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.

Addition to the above 'Stipulations' sub-section:

Tie or Matched Bids are ONLY permitted when an individual's current DKP holdings are equal to the current bid at the time.

Quote

   
Ties Between Bidders
 
Tied bids are resolved via Random 1000 Ruleset, between the tied bidders.  The item cost used is the tied bid value.

Tied Bidders Format:

Tied Maximum Bids! - ONLY: < player_names >, /random 1000 now on < item_link > for < tied_bid_value > DKP!

Last call (tied bidders only) on < item_link >, for < tied_bid_value > DKP!

./random CLOSED.

Congrats < player_name > on < item_link > for  < tied_bid_value > DKP.

No change required here.  This process is still needed if/when Tie Bids occur and triggered by our exception clause.



N/A Category
 
This isn't a rule change.

We categorize Key/Flag items as N/A.  N/A items inherit the guidelines associated with the ruleset used at the time of distribution.  However, there's no reference to this association in the document, which can potentially lead to a misunderstanding or unfair item distribution.

To resolve this issue, the 'Item Category' description area must be changed to include N/A.  All other areas of reference must also be changed.

Quote

   

Item Categories

Items categorized in this section, fall within the confines of the Freelance Hybrid DKP System.  Each "Real Life" person is allowed to participate, winning one AUG, LOOT and RUNE item per night.  "OPEN" items still count as your item in that category for the night, and are available to anyone, including prior winners.

Changed the above description to:

Items categorized in this section, fall within the confines of the Freelance Hybrid DKP System.  Each "Real Life" person is allowed to participate, winning one AUG, LOOT, RUNE, and NA item per night.  "OPEN" items still count as your item in that category for the night, and are available to anyone, including prior winners.

Quote

   

Miscellaneous Items

Items that spawn instances; unlock doors; and/or otherwise required for raid functionality are distributed to the Raid Leader, or those with Raid Authority.

• Progression Flags
• Key-Type Items

Changed the above to:


Progression Items

Progression items such as Key/Flags are distributed via the N/A category.  N/A items inherit the guidelines associated with the ruleset used at the time of distribution.


Special Case Items

Items that spawn instances; unlock doors; and/or otherwise required for raid functionality are distributed to the Raid Leader, or those with Raid Authority.



CHANGELOG:

- Added "No Tie Bids" to DKP system, related Stipulations sub-section, altered to reflect change.
- N/A inheritance reference to 'Item Category' description
- Fixed wording in the 'Miscellaneous Items' section for clarity.

Title: Re: Freelance DKP & Random
Post by: Furro on April 12, 2011, 07:31:23 PM

 

Loot System Changes

* EFFECTIVE DATE: Tuesday, April 19, 2011

In order to aid in our progression efforts and strengthen us as a team, several changes/adjustments to the Freelance Loot System are necessary.


Overview

This is a brief overview, with details covered further below.

• Item Distribution State discontinued.

 

• LOOT category items distributed via the DKP Ruleset.

 

• LOOT OPEN items distributed via the Random 1000 Ruleset.

Detail Tracking

Since these changes affect the Loot System, they must be documented.  This is the detail section of those changes.

Quote

   
 

Item Distribution States

Freelances item distribution system has two states:  Random and DKP.  The state used at any given time is determined via random chance, with odds of it being either DKP or Random ruleset.

* Effective:  Friday, May 22, 2009 The hybrid states portion of our DKP system is now in effect from this point forward.  If you're not familiar with our system, please click on the Loot Rules (http://www.eqfreelance.net/basics/loot_rules.html) link for details.



Item Distribution State Procedure

Prior to distributing each loot bounty, the Raid Leader will issue a /random 1000.

A /random 1000 result greater than or equal to 300 will use DKP ruleset.
A /random 1000 result less than 300 will use normal /random 1000 ruleset.

* Important: DKP is still a factor, in any given state we are in.   What this means is, you still earn DKP for an event where an item is distributed via /random.  By the same token, any items won via random, the DKP value attached is deducted from your Current DKP holdings.  For a newcomer, winning a /random, it's entirely possible to go into negative Current DKP holdings.  This can be alievated, by continuing to show up for raids.

Item Categories

Items categorized in this section, fall within the confines of the Freelance Hybrid DKP System.  Each "Real Life" person is allowed to participate, winning one AUG, LOOT, RUNE, and NA item per night.  "OPEN" items still count as your item in that category for the night, and are available to anyone, including prior winners.

     1         2         ]3         ]3         ]

CATEGORY		DEFINITION		RULESET		DKP BASE
AUG		Augmentation Item		Random 1000		10
LOOT		Regular Loot Item		Random 1000 or DKP		10
RUNE		Spell / Melee Disc		Random 1000		5
N/A		Miscellaneous Items		Random 1000 & Raid Attendance		0

Changed above to:

Item Distribution

Freelance uses both DKP and Random 1000 to distribute items.  All items are associated with a category, and each category tied to a ruleset; which is used for item distribution.


* Important: DKP is still a factor, regardless of distribution method used (DKP/Random).  What this means is, you still earn DKP for an event where an item is distributed via /random.  By the same token, any items won via random, the DKP value attached is deducted from your Current DKP holdings.  For a newcomer, winning a /random, it's entirely possible to go into negative Current DKP holdings.  This can be alievated, by continuing to show up for raids.


Item Categories

Items categorized in this section, fall within the confines of the Freelance Hybrid DKP System.  Each "Real Life" person is allowed to participate, winning one AUG, LOOT, RUNE, and NA item per night.  "OPEN" items still count as your item in that category for the night, and are available to anyone, including prior winners.
 

     1         2         ]3         ]3         ]4         ]

CATEGORY		DEFINITION		RULESET		DKP BASE
AUG		Augmentation Item		Random 1000		10
LOOT		Regular Loot Item		DKP		10
RUNE		Spell / Melee Disc		Random 1000		5
N/A		Miscellaneous Items		Random 1000 & Raid Attendance		0
OPEN		Used in conjunction with above categories		Random 1000

Quote

   

Random 1000 Ruleset

Overview

When in this state, all applicable category items are distributed via Random 1000 Ruleset.  Highest number wins; with one random per item, per "Real Life" person; and limited to one item win a night.


Stipulations

The following conditions are in play during the random ruleset:

• Strict /random format 0 - 1000

   

• One /random per item, per "Real Life" person

   

• One item win a night

   

• AUG and LOOT categorized items, are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.

   

• N/A items may be subject to a Raid Attendance factor to determine eligibility for random.

   

• OPEN items tied to a category, are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.

   

• Items available for NPC Trade-In are distributed in the following order: LOOT, LOOT OPEN, LOOT OPEN (Classes: ALL).  These items are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.

Changed wording with regards to "state" reference.
Corrected a missing reference in "Stipulations" section, missing RUNE category related to DKP cost attached.


Changed above to:

Random 1000 Ruleset

Overview

All applicable category items are distributed via Random 1000 Ruleset.  Highest number wins; with one random per item, per "Real Life" person; and limited to one item win a night.


Stipulations

The following conditions are in play during the random ruleset:

• Strict /random format 0 - 1000

   

• One /random per item, per "Real Life" person

   

• One item win a night

   

• AUG, RUNE and LOOT categorized items, are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.

   

• N/A items may be subject to a Raid Attendance factor to determine eligibility for random.

   

• OPEN items tied to a category, are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.

   

• Items available for NPC Trade-In are distributed in the following order: LOOT, LOOT OPEN, LOOT OPEN (Classes: ALL).  These items are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.

Quote

   

DKP Ruleset

Overview

When in this state, all applicable category items are distributed via DKP Ruleset.

Raiders decide the value of an item, based on their desire to have it.

All items being auctioned have a base open bid value of 10 DKP.

There are 3 rounds of bidding, all done in /raidsay.

A player cannot bid more then his Current DKP holdings.

Removed "state" reference above.

Changed above to:

Overview

All applicable category items are distributed via DKP Ruleset.

Raiders decide the value of an item, based on their desire to have it.

All items being auctioned have a base open bid value of 10 DKP.

There are 3 rounds of bidding, all done in /raidsay.

A player cannot bid more then his Current DKP holdings.

Quote

   

DKP Ruleset

No bidders on an item
 
This situation comes into play when three bid rounds elapse, with no player bids on the item.

In this case, the item is up for bid again, as "OPEN", and the normal bid round format continues.

If an OPEN item has no bidders following three rounds, then a winner is deteremined via Random 1000 Ruleset.

* Note this change to our procedure *

Changed above to:

Three elapsed rounds of no bids and the item will be processed as "OPEN", via the Random 1000 Ruleset.



CHANGELOG for EFFECTIVE DATE: 04/19/2011

- Removed 'Item Distribution State Procedure' section.
- Renamed 'Item Distribution States' to 'Item Distribution'.
- Section 'Item Categories' changed to sub-section and included under 'Item Distribution' section.
- Added "OPEN" Category to table in 'Item Categories' sub-section for clarity as to purpose.
- Changed 'Random 1000 Ruleset', sub-sections: Overview, Stipulations.
- Corrected missing category 'RUNE', under 'Random 1000 Ruleset' section, sub-section 'Stipulations'.
- Changed 'DKP Ruleset', sub-sections: Overview, No Bidders on an Item.

CHANGELOG once in effect for FL Site & Forum Loot Pages:

- Updated Loot sections on main FL site
- Updated Forum Loot System sticky posts
- Scheduled events posts updated (tables/etc).

Title: Re: Freelance DKP & Random
Post by: Furro on April 18, 2011, 06:00:20 PM

 
Updated the related Freelance document to reflect the quoted modifications:

Quote

 

Loot System Changes

* EFFECTIVE DATE: Tuesday, April 19, 2011

In order to aid in our progression efforts and strengthen us as a team, several changes/adjustments to the Freelance Loot System are necessary.


Overview

This is a brief overview, with details covered further below.

• Item Distribution State discontinued.

 

• LOOT category items distributed via the DKP Ruleset.

 

• LOOT OPEN items distributed via the Random 1000 Ruleset.

Quote

 
CHANGELOG for EFFECTIVE DATE: 04/19/2011

- Removed 'Item Distribution State Procedure' section.
- Renamed 'Item Distribution States' to 'Item Distribution'.
- Section 'Item Categories' changed to sub-section and included under 'Item Distribution' section.
- Added "OPEN" Category to table in 'Item Categories' sub-section for clarity as to purpose.
- Changed 'Random 1000 Ruleset', sub-sections: Overview, Stipulations.
- Corrected missing category 'RUNE', under 'Random 1000 Ruleset' section, sub-section 'Stipulations'.
- Changed 'DKP Ruleset', sub-sections: Overview, No Bidders on an Item.

CHANGELOG once in effect for FL Site & Forum Loot Pages:

- Updated Loot sections on main FL site
- Updated Forum Loot System sticky posts
- Scheduled events posts updated (tables/etc).

Reformatted terms section for cleaner presentation.

Quote

   

Terminology

This section will define terms and abbreviations used within this system and/or during item distribution.

Loot - Items considered of value that drop during raids.  Usually from main events, but sometimes from other sources.

Loot Bounty - A collection of items considered of value that drop at an event.  Normally found after successful completion of an event.

Bounty Total - A value derived from total spent DKP on a per target basis.  Used in calculating DKP earnings.

/random - In-game random dice rolling, it can be any range between 0 to 32000.  Freelance uses 0 to 1000 (example: /random 1000).

Real Life Person - This applies to a single person in the real world playing single or multiple characters in-game.  All their characters are considered the same person, even if the person is boxing someone elses character.

FFA - This means "free for all".  In the context of this section, an item called as FFA is open to anyone who wants it without a /random or item cost.

OPEN - Items tied to a category, that have gone through a first pass for distribution, where no player interest was declared.  These items are still subject to the DKP cost attached.

Last Call - This is done as a last warning call before /randoms are closed for the particular item.

Regular Loot  - Items tied to the "LOOT" category, are items that count towards your loot for the night.

DKP - "Dragon Kill Points".  In general this is our system used to quantify item distribution based on raid participation.  These points are awarded for time spent on our raids, and used as currency to purchase items of value.

Current DKP - An individuals total point pool or holdings.

Mains, Alternates, Bots, Non-Mains - Different forms of character classification.  For the purpose of DKP tracking, these are all considered one and the same, in that they're equal individual entities and tracked as such.

Raid Attendance - An individuals participation count, that is tracked.

Item Cost - A numerical value, attached to an item.

Changed above to:


       spacer        spacer    spacer        spacer        spacer    spacer        spacer    spacer        spacer    spacer        spacer    spacer        spacer        spacer        spacer    spacer        spacer            spacer        spacer       

TERM		DEFINITION
Loot		Items considered of value that drop during raids.  Usually from main events, but sometimes from other sources.
Loot Bounty		A collection of items considered of value that drop at an event.  Normally found after successful completion
		of an event.
Bounty Total		A value derived from total spent DKP on a per target basis.  Used in calculating DKP earnings.
/random		In-game random dice rolling, it can be any range between 0 to 32000.  Freelance uses 0 to 1000
		(example: /random 1000).
Real Life Person		This applies to a single person in the real world playing single or multiple characters in-game.
		All their characters are considered the same person, even if the person is boxing someone elses character.
FFA		This means "free for all".  In the context of this section, an item called as FFA is open to anyone who wants it
		without a /random or cost attached.
OPEN		Items tied to a category, that have gone through a first pass for distribution, where no player interest was
		declared.  These items are still subject to the DKP cost attached.
Last Call		This is done as a last warning call before /randoms are closed for the particular item.
Regular Loot		Items tied to the "LOOT" category, are items that count towards your loot for the night.
DKP		"Dragon Kill Points".  In general this is our system used to quantify loot distribution based on raid participation.
		These points are awarded for time spent on our raids, and used as currency to purchase items of value.
Current DKP		An individuals total point pool or holdings.
Mains, Alternates,		Different forms of character classification.  For the purpose of DKP tracking, these are all considered
Bots, Non-Mains		one and the same, in that they're equal individual entities and tracked as such.
Raid Attendance		An individuals participiation count, that is tracked.
Item Cost		A numerical value attached to an item.

CHANGELOG:

- Reformatted terms section for cleaner presentation.  No new terms added.

Title: Re: Freelance DKP & Random
Post by: Furro on March 27, 2012, 03:04:19 AM

 

Loot System Changes

* EFFECTIVE DATE: Thursday, March 29, 2012

In order to expedite our item distribution process, several changes/adjustments to the system are necessary.


Overview

Brief overview here.  Reasoning for each detailed further below.

• Minimum bid increments of 5 DKP at a time.  Exception to this rule is if your MAX TOTAL DKP does not fall within 5 DKP; in which case you are allow to go all in.
   
  
• ALL RUNE and NA items will be processed FIRST via their normal associated ruleset(s).

 

• Any content deemed 'Retro' (old), we will process ONLY items in which players wish to opt in on.

Minimum Bid Increments:

The +1 bids slow us down.  Not much explanation needed here really.  Nothing against low bids btw, just a little tweak here would expedite the bidding process for the better and we'll reach the average item cost more quickly.


RUNE & NA Items First

Many are waiting around for these items to be processed.  Many would like to move on to the next target during the loot process, but wish to opt in on these other items.  By processing these items right away, those players can get a move on.


Retro Content

We track loot closely.  We know what goes OPEN and for what content.  We've done the retro style process before (Solteris for example), and it'll work no differently.

What I didn't realize was I never put an official clause in place (as officially, we're not deviating from our rulesets).  But for clarity, it's always best to cover even a minor process change.

Here's the process how we've done it in the past:

• Loot Bounty is linked in /raidsay (as normal)

 

• Players interested in one or more items LINK the item in FLRaids:raids channel.

 

• Items linked are processed as per their associated ruleset.

So basically, as you see the only difference is, the opt in part.  This speeds up the entire distribution process considerably.  Often times, on older content we have to go through the motions for loot as per the rules.  This workaround allows us not to change our rules and only process item(s) players are interested in.

Edit:

Apparently I did put a clause in the retro event posts regarding the process after all (yeah I'm getting old, memory fading!).  Anyway, I'll add it to the official loot system post, but here it is for reference:

Quote

Retro Content - Item Distribution by Player Request:

At the time of item distribution, the chest contents will be linked in /raidsay, and players interested are asked to link in the FLRaids channel the items they want processed.  The purpose of this procedure is to expedite the distribution process of low demand items.

Title: Re: Freelance DKP & Random
Post by: Furro on May 22, 2012, 01:28:45 AM

 

Loot System Changes

* EFFECTIVE DATE: Thursday, May 24, 2012

We need to tweak this just a bit further to expedite the escalation of bids and facilitate faster loot distribution.

Adjustment:

Minimum bid increments of 10 DKP at a time.  Exception to this rule is if your MAX TOTAL DKP does not fall within 10 DKP; in which case you are allow to go all in.

Title: Re: Freelance DKP & Random
Post by: Furro on June 03, 2012, 05:54:27 PM

 

Loot System Changes

* EFFECTIVE DATE: Wednesday, June 6, 2012


Changes:

Current designated expansion LOOT items require 20% Raid Attendance in order to BID on them.

Retro designated expansion items are processed on demand via /random 1000 Ruleset, with normal associated base costs.  With the exception of special earmarked items (quest drops).

Note:

Current/Retro designations are included as part of the Event Items tables, within each weekly raid schedule post located in the Upcoming Events & Strategy (http://forums.eqfreelance.net/YaBB.pl?board=events) area.

Updated the Freelance Loot System (http://forums.eqfreelance.net/YaBB.pl?num=1235356775/0#0) post to reflect these changes.

Title: Re: Freelance DKP & Random
Post by: Juddor Darkguard on June 13, 2012, 06:04:59 PM

I dont know if this is a discussion thread, but i like the idea of /random 1000 for old content.. however...

Certain clicky items (even though retro), may want to be on the bidding block rather then random.

Circle of items
Ancestrial memories

They are just so rare.

Title: Re: Freelance DKP & Random
Post by: Furro on June 14, 2012, 04:44:28 PM

Quote

I dont know if this is a discussion thread, but i like the idea of /random 1000 for old content.. however...

Certain clicky items (even though retro), may want to be on the bidding block rather then random.

Circle of items
Ancestrial memories

They are just so rare.

 
The exception clause covers those.  It should really read: Quest items, etc.

For prior Retro content, we've done DKP+RA (ie, Solteris etc), so there's precedence.   I'll adjust the category tables in the schedule posts and add "etc" to the dkp document.

CoP3 is rare, although obtainable 2-3 groups via Solteris for example.  But of course, that comes with its own challenges.

Ancestrial Memories (OH) is rare, but at least there are some avenues to pick one up to a degree (like 12% etc). 

Anyway, both are great clickies as you know and I agree!

Title: Re: Freelance DKP & Random
Post by: Ssark on June 14, 2012, 10:32:11 PM

CoP3 will be available for about 48 diamond coins in VoA T3.  Just saying. :)

Title: Re: Freelance DKP & Random
Post by: mistatk on June 28, 2012, 04:16:49 AM

The best tank agro focus mask we have available currently is in HoT t3, with the next one we will have access to is in HoT t4.  After that will be Rubak raid.  Also the most usable charm items are still in HoT t3-t4.  Can these items be put to bid instead of open?  thse items are atleast as important as overhaste clickers and arent available elsewhere.

Title: Re: Freelance DKP & Random
Post by: Furro on June 29, 2012, 02:57:58 AM

Quote

The best tank agro focus mask we have available currently is in HoT t3, with the next one we will have access to is in HoT t4.  After that will be Rubak raid.  Also the most usable charm items are still in HoT t3-t4.  Can these items be put to bid instead of open?  thse items are atleast as important as overhaste clickers and arent available elsewhere.

 
No on anything like this.  We're just not going to get into select lists beyond CoP3/OH and specific Quest drops (ie, Shawl 2.0 head). 

Fortunately, the aggro mask is at least available via Vendor for 60 Diamond Coins.  That's probably the best route to go currently to pick one up.

Title: Re: Freelance DKP & Random
Post by: Buukala on July 07, 2012, 08:34:43 PM

Quote

Quote

The best tank agro focus mask we have available currently is in HoT t3, with the next one we will have access to is in HoT t4.  After that will be Rubak raid.  Also the most usable charm items are still in HoT t3-t4.  Can these items be put to bid instead of open?  thse items are atleast as important as overhaste clickers and arent available elsewhere.

 
No on anything like this.  We're just not going to get into select lists beyond CoP3/OH and specific Quest drops (ie, Shawl 2.0 head). 

Fortunately, the aggro mask is at least available via Vendor for 60 Diamond Coins.  That's probably the best route to go currently to pick one up.

Except that won't be unlocked until Rubak is defeated, which may be a ways out.

Title: Re: Freelance DKP & Random
Post by: Furro on August 01, 2012, 02:51:27 AM

 

Minor Process Changes

[/size][/u]

For efficiency and fairness, minor adjustments to our distribution processes are in order.


OPEN Category

Change: OPEN items to be processed LAST.

Reason: One or more players may be interested in an OPEN item, but the item they really want is further down the process list.  They're effectively shut out of opting in on an OPEN item of interest merely due to process.


Identical Items

Change: Identical items subject to Random 1000 Ruleset, will be processed in a single pass.

Reason: Efficiency.

Note: We've always done AUG/RUNE/NA items in a single pass process.  There's no issue doing LOOT items the same way.



Raid Attendance Start Checks


Change: 1 DKP Start Check taken +/- 5 minutes from official start time.

Reason: Efficiency and fairness to others who show up on time.