Author Topic: TBM - Plane of Health - T2 - Stem the Tide  (Read 10113 times)

Brenlaven

  • Slacker
  • *
  • Posts: 49
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: TBM - Plane of Health - T2 - Stem the Tide
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2016, 07:16:07 PM »
Pulsing Fumes - run away dot....

IMO, if there is a toon that can group cure it...they should be casting it.  It helps in every way possible. Casters don't have to "run" to cure and can keep dpsing. Melee don't have to "run" to cure and can keep dpsing.

However, melee are in rampage range so the curer for those toons may be eating rampage too which isn't always a good idea. It just depends on the toon.

But in the end...if a toon is dying from this dot waiting for a cure it is on that toon to think and move instead of expecting a cure or simply dying.  This is assuming the toons in the group are doing the right thing and trying to stay near the heeler/curer instead of being spread out for no valid reason. Those green 'x' on your map are useful...people should be using them.

The entire event and strategy is a mess.  Everyone runs way too far to cure Pulsing Fumes btw...it is 50' or something...no need to run to other side of the zone.  Personally, it seems reasonable for a heeler/curer to be in the middle of the 'circle' and only move if/when a totem is in the way. The group could stand near the heeler and then when the heeler moves to avoid the totem the group moves to the heeler.  The strat of being 'outside' the circle is interesting but just seems to make the 'stay together' plan harder.

Brenlaven

  • Slacker
  • *
  • Posts: 49
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Akkapan Fast
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2016, 07:29:12 PM »
Achievement Akkapan Fast.

I like that Freelance is working on the achievements.  This one needs some refinement which is to be expected. As there is more attempts at it the strategy will come together.  As an idea for adjustments...here are some observations/thoughts...

It took almost 3 minutes to kill all the adds at the start (best guess) which leaves all of 12 minutes to kill the boss.  Assuming we will have between 10-12 minutes to kill the boss and all his adds the strategy has to change for doing this achievement.

On the engage of the boss...the burns from the adds are still running in some cases so wasting even 30 seconds to plant fires is 30 seconds of burns being wasted. Instead, how about the MTO picks up the boss after the initial adds are dead and stand a spot and tank the boss. The fires can be dropped while the boss is being worked on with the leftover burns.  A totem will spawn eventually and the boss can be moved to a fire as normal.

Rather than pulling the boss away from the adds every time they spawn how about we simply leave the boss where he is (totems of course need reacting to) and kill the first 3 (maybe 4?) waves of adds at the bosses feet?  The first 4 waves are 1, 3 , 5, 5 according to other posts in this thread.  There should be no reason to pull the boss away from adds for these waves.  Later waves sure...the numbers add up.

The first 3 or 4 waves of adds could be AE'd down pretty reasonably right?  There are times where an add tank has 2 or 3 adds on him from broken mez or simply non-mez adds so if the heeler for that add tank actually does heel the add tank it should be okay to let the wave not be mezzed.

After wave 4 (?) go back to the move boss -> mez adds -> run around looking for adds because they are not grouped together strategy...until the boss is dead.

Just some thoughts on how to optimized the strat...


Zelorne

  • Slacker
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: TBM - Plane of Health - T2 - Stem the Tide
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2016, 10:10:51 PM »
I've mentioned  it before but we don't have to kill all the adds before we start the event. If you kill about half or so the boss spawns you can then pull the boss single and leave the rest there. We would have to relocate to another clearing on the western edge to avoid the remaining adds. The boss does not leash from there.

Brenlaven

  • Slacker
  • *
  • Posts: 49
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: TBM - Plane of Health - T2 - Stem the Tide
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2016, 12:02:42 AM »
I've mentioned  it before but we don't have to kill all the adds before we start the event.

Freelance could also try to do the event like RoI does and simply move the boss and entire raid when adds spawn since they are nonaggro at start and they will not aggro anyone if people are out of aggro range.  There is a video of this strat btw. Not saying it is the strat Freelance wants to use but if we are tossing out ideas there is another one to consider...

This is an interesting strat and it might work but don't you have to kill all the adds in the end to beat the event? And it isn't related to the achievement is it?

Raccoo

  • Jr. Pie Eater
  • **
  • Posts: 89
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
Re: TBM - Plane of Health - T2 - Stem the Tide
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2016, 02:53:45 AM »
Someone said boss HP locks when adds are up.

Furro

  • Global Moderator
  • Pies Anonymous
  • *****
  • Posts: 5132
  • Karma: +12/-12
  • freelance raider
    • View Profile
Re: TBM - Plane of Health - T2 - Stem the Tide
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2016, 10:43:30 PM »
Pulsing Fumes - run away dot....

IMO, if there is a toon that can group cure it...they should be casting it.  It helps in every way possible. Casters don't have to "run" to cure and can keep dpsing. Melee don't have to "run" to cure and can keep dpsing.

However, melee are in rampage range so the curer for those toons may be eating rampage too which isn't always a good idea. It just depends on the toon.

But in the end...if a toon is dying from this dot waiting for a cure it is on that toon to think and move instead of expecting a cure or simply dying.  This is assuming the toons in the group are doing the right thing and trying to stay near the heeler/curer instead of being spread out for no valid reason. Those green 'x' on your map are useful...people should be using them.

The entire event and strategy is a mess.  Everyone runs way too far to cure Pulsing Fumes btw...it is 50' or something...no need to run to other side of the zone.  Personally, it seems reasonable for a heeler/curer to be in the middle of the 'circle' and only move if/when a totem is in the way. The group could stand near the heeler and then when the heeler moves to avoid the totem the group moves to the heeler.  The strat of being 'outside' the circle is interesting but just seems to make the 'stay together' plan harder.

I agree there is no need to run far when pulsing fumes emote fires.  It really only takes a short distance to remove the debuff.

Furro

  • Global Moderator
  • Pies Anonymous
  • *****
  • Posts: 5132
  • Karma: +12/-12
  • freelance raider
    • View Profile
Re: TBM - Plane of Health - T2 - Stem the Tide
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2016, 10:48:18 PM »
Someone said boss HP locks when adds are up.

We'll find out in our next /ach run attempt, which should be this week.  Some ideas were spit balled and expored post raids last week.


Zelorne

  • Slacker
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: TBM - Plane of Health - T2 - Stem the Tide
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2016, 11:48:48 AM »
I confirmed it myself that when you begin the event the boss will spawn when 20 of those adds remain.

This achievement seems very difficult. Ideally you would want to ae stun and dps every add wave while the boss is moved out, several shaman to surge heal the raid through totem aura and paladins splash curing that pulsing fumes dot and any deathstrikes that hit raid. Easier said than done.

Furro

  • Global Moderator
  • Pies Anonymous
  • *****
  • Posts: 5132
  • Karma: +12/-12
  • freelance raider
    • View Profile
Re: TBM - Plane of Health - T2 - Stem the Tide
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2016, 11:07:29 PM »
Dimbly had an idea for a different approach to how we move the boss.  Basically, it involves moving in parallel.  I asked him to work up a diagram to help illustrate the idea so everyone is on the same page.  We will be trying this out next run, along with some other changes which will be covered during prep.

Ignore the purple "Run to cure" markers, we're going to ignore that emote and have Paladins splash to remove the effect.

I've updated the trigger package by removing the Pulsing Fumes run away emote, and replaced it with one for Paladins to splash.  Everyone please delete your old set and import the new.  For non-Paladins, you can toggle off the new trigger (or delete it), it's in a folder called: Pulsing Fumes - Paladin Splash to cure.

Dimbly diagram:

Brenlaven

  • Slacker
  • *
  • Posts: 49
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Achievement Akkapan Fast.
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2016, 06:27:19 AM »
Achievement Akkapan Fast.

Everyone should want this ach...but it is clear that until this target can be downed in a clean manner the ach should be on the back burner.

Regardless of which strat (circle/square vs line) is used...the raid has to focus and work on getting the boss / adds down cleaner.

As a tank it is annoyingly difficult to try to keep the adds grouped because totems land and all the tank wants to do is move the add out of the aura. There is not big blinking sign that says "every tank bring your add here" so it is a free for all...which leads to adds being spread out.  Not sure what can be done to reduce this really but if there are ideas share them please.

Handling adds....as mentioned in FLRaids...if everyone but the tanks backed away when the adds spawn and wait for them to go aggro it should mean less deaths for melee (or casters).  If the adds are being mezzed it still lets tanks pick up adds....maybe the tanks could step back too...so only the 'live' ones need to be picked up.  Hard to do...but moving away gives the add CC process (mez/tank) a better chance of getting it done.  Will let Furro clarify how he wants this done as necessary but less deaths should mean more DPS right?

As a side note, (Freelance is not RoI but it is still interesting)....RoI had posted a video on YouTube (gone now) where at the later add spawns the entire raid would move on the "adds spawn" emote.  The adds simply stood where they spawned.  If someone was slow and in aggro range the adds would aggro that toon...so they were either killed or the toon just died.  The video showed that a set of adds spawned...raid moved...then those adds were tagged and killed in RoI style (zerging them).  But the last 3 (?) sets of adds...were simply let to spawn...and the boss was taken to 2% (?) and then the adds pulled in by clumps and again zerged in RoI style.  Not suggesting Freelance try to zerg RoI style...but if Furro thinks this is an option for a strat it is just info to explain that the adds would just stand around if nobody was in aggro range. BTW, RoI used a modified line strat where they killed a certain number of add waves (in a circle area) then started pulling the boss in a line leaving the adds behind as described above.

Run to cure (Pulsing Fury?) is curable by a single cast of drood group cure BTW. Pally splash is great but if a caster group is out of range of pally's a simple cure can get it handled for the group.  Death Strike is RC curable as well...maybe by other things as well.

On the emote where the boss wants to kill a toon...that toon still needs to run TO the boss. Otherwise the tank has to chase it down...melee DPS can't hit the boss...and the tank could die by a bad round or being OOR of heelerz.  Is there a pattern that helps a toon know they are about to be smacked?

It seems like the boss "glares" at a toon then will smack that toon...is this accurate? Or is the "glares" related to the Death Strike buff?  Anyone have any insight on it?

Knowing you are about to get smacks means the toon can head to the boss...but if the "glare" is for Death Strike then that toon needs to get to the group curer to cure that thing ASAP.

So far, this event has been herding cats (funny how the boss is a rat huh?) but it will get better...folks just need to keep working the strat Furro is implementing until everyone is comfortable with it....so lets stop the bitching about "going back to strat 'x'" please.  Furro is working hard to refine the strat as he finds what works best...complaining in FLRaids doesn't help folks focus on the strat at hand...it simply confused people.



Furro

  • Global Moderator
  • Pies Anonymous
  • *****
  • Posts: 5132
  • Karma: +12/-12
  • freelance raider
    • View Profile
Re: TBM - Plane of Health - T2 - Stem the Tide
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2016, 10:33:01 PM »
I'm posting a strategy update later which details exactly what we're trying to accomplish.  It also includes a diagram/map which should clearly articulate our linear/parallel lines concept.  I just wanted to take a moment and reply to Brens post though, because it gives me an opportunity to clarify/point out some examples of why we believe the linear line approach may prove to be more succesful as opposed to our previous square waypoint strategy.

Achievement Akkapan Fast.

Everyone should want this ach...but it is clear that until this target can be downed in a clean manner the ach should be on the back burner.


The achievement is really just a motivator.  Our main objective is to do the event more quickly and efficiently.  Previous wins before moving to a line strategy were excruciating (30-45+ mins).  You're aware of this having been at many of them.  We'd get to points where many players had died several times, and at some points near the end it was almost a complete wipe and we were essentially rezzing and zerging.  The square positioning with four move waypoints was never reliably executed and arguably encouraged players to spread out, which caused healing issues among other things. 

With the square four waypoint strat for example, players often lingered/positioned/inadvertantly ended up at a campfire (a marked waypoint for MT), and then a totem would spawn at their location.  A short time later, the MT would have to move the boss but couldn't use the waypoint because of the existing totem.  It would cause confusion for the MT, or the MT would move there blindly (because they're walking backwards [ using their map ] usually to the waypoint, not expecting a totem there to begin with), and they'd take damage moving into the totem, then have to move again to another campfire... This happened often.  Using our linear lines strategy, this is far less likely to happen because there's never any reason anyone except for the MT needs to be in front of the boss.  All the "action" is behind the boss (adds, and even when we're actively killing the boss).

Another big benefit to the linear lines strategy is that it actively segments casters/healers from the bulk of our melee.  This cuts down on the random chance a totem spawns at melee for example.  If it spawns at casters/healers, they simply shuffle along the blue line on their map.  If it spawns at melee, they adjust accordingly as well (green line/side).  Further, a good portion of our linear progression takes place in a corridor (walls on each side), which forces players to stay closer together (which benefits healing/curing/adps).  Players are forced to keep up with the raid, because that's where the "action" is.  But having said that, they're not constantly moving every 5 seconds.  For casters/healers, they're able to shuffle along the blue line and operate at a position for a while before a raid mechanic forces them to move again or to keep up with the raid.

I'm not saying circle/square with waypoints cannot work.  Just that it allows players a lot of freedom of movement, and that doesn't work in our favour most of the time.


Regardless of which strat (circle/square vs line) is used...the raid has to focus and work on getting the boss / adds down cleaner.

As a tank it is annoyingly difficult to try to keep the adds grouped because totems land and all the tank wants to do is move the add out of the aura. There is not big blinking sign that says "every tank bring your add here" so it is a free for all...which leads to adds being spread out.  Not sure what can be done to reduce this really but if there are ideas share them please.

With casters/healers properly following their blue line, it'll help reduce the chance of a totem spawning in the adds (ie where melee/tanks are).

Re: "every tank bring your add here".

If a tank is moving their add out of a totem, there's really only one way to go: Forward.  I suppose you could go to the sides, but there should be enough room to advance the add forward into the gap the MT created when he/she moved the boss immediately when adds spawned.  Yeah, the MT has to nail the move.

The other side of this is, we've been discussing whether or not we could ignore the totem during adds.  Minisca believes we can fight through it.  I'm fine with trying it, providing a) Boss AE Rampage is out not included (it shouldn't be if MT moves properly), b) Players react to Death Strike emote properly (they should be now, since I fixed the trigger [ mentioned in my update post tba ]).  Technically, the Totem AE is really only 50k after spell shielding kicks in.  As a melee, they take more damage from Boss AE rampage than they do from a totem.  From a healing point of view, our CR/SoTW/IOS (healing over time) efforts are being coordinated during add sets, to offset all the damage going on.  So with all that in mind, I believe it's possible we could muscle through a totem.  The downside though (the risk), is really all on the Add Tanks.  The adds are pretty hard hitters, and we have to consider a 50k hit on top of a melee round (on an undisced tank, beacuse they won't be disced all the time).  Some of our weaker tanks, respectfully, may not hold up.  Not all the adds are stunnable either, to help mitigate the damage.

In the strategy update I've specifically left out a directive for the Add Tanks and adjusting position when in a totem, because this is something we could adjust before making an attempt and gauge the effectiveness.  From there, determine if it's viable to go forward with it.

On a similar note, (AE damage), in the strategy update; I've worded how melee dps should react in a "use your judgement" fashion.  Because melee dps are in the thick of things and often they have to decide whether to react to the Vortex AE trigger and step out for a moment to avoid it, or take the hit and continue.  The same is true of a totem situation for melee dps.  Basically, if a melee sees their HP get dangerously low, sometimes stepping back to avoid the Vortex AE or Totem AE can give their healer a moment to react and top their HP off.


Handling adds....as mentioned in FLRaids...if everyone but the tanks backed away when the adds spawn and wait for them to go aggro it should mean less deaths for melee (or casters).  If the adds are being mezzed it still lets tanks pick up adds....maybe the tanks could step back too...so only the 'live' ones need to be picked up.  Hard to do...but moving away gives the add CC process (mez/tank) a better chance of getting it done.  Will let Furro clarify how he wants this done as necessary but less deaths should mean more DPS right?

We need to be killing the adds the moment they spawn, even while they are inactive (they are damagable).  While adds are inactive doesn't prevent a tank from aggroing them.  Every second counts.  Some people may think this is crazy, but we need the adds down in 15-30 seconds.  Period.  That's our window.  Using AE damage and all the DPS we can muster, going all out.  The adds are the threat.  Eliminating the threat as quickly as possible is the number one priority.

We need to stop mezzing adds.  We can use AE Stuns, and brute force healing counteract the damage from adds.  The moment we use mez, we cannot use AE damage, which cuts our effectiveness down significantly.


As a side note, (Freelance is not RoI but it is still interesting)....RoI had posted a video on YouTube (gone now) where at the later add spawns the entire raid would move on the "adds spawn" emote.  The adds simply stood where they spawned.  If someone was slow and in aggro range the adds would aggro that toon...so they were either killed or the toon just died.  The video showed that a set of adds spawned...raid moved...then those adds were tagged and killed in RoI style (zerging them).  But the last 3 (?) sets of adds...were simply let to spawn...and the boss was taken to 2% (?) and then the adds pulled in by clumps and again zerged in RoI style.  Not suggesting Freelance try to zerg RoI style...but if Furro thinks this is an option for a strat it is just info to explain that the adds would just stand around if nobody was in aggro range. BTW, RoI used a modified line strat where they killed a certain number of add waves (in a circle area) then started pulling the boss in a line leaving the adds behind as described above.

The funny thing about such a strat of leaving the adds behind is that it's total fucking cheese.  Development never tied add aggro to the boss and therefore the adds don't aggro after going active.  For a guild to take advantage of that oversight and incorporate it into a strategy is funny and sad all rolled into one.  A guild should have the balls to fucking kill the adds (or deal with them in some fashion, be it CC/etc), without using such a design oversight to their personal advantage.  How many events do you know where adds spawn and never go active if no one is around?  Raid events.  I can't think of any, but I'm sure there are some, and I doubt it's intended.  I'm not saying this to start a flame war or claim that FL is better than x guild.  But really, the adds pop for a reason, they're not there to look at or just run away and completely avoid.  I mean really, to employ such a tactic would make the event completely trivial.  Think about it.  Regardless whether a guild kills a few waves of adds at the start, the real event begins when the 5x adds and beyond come into play.


Run to cure (Pulsing Fury?) is curable by a single cast of drood group cure BTW. Pally splash is great but if a caster group is out of range of pally's a simple cure can get it handled for the group.  Death Strike is RC curable as well...maybe by other things as well.

Paladins are curing this with the aid of a trigger that tells them exactly when to queue up their splash ring and when to cast splash.

They're getting better at it.  But there's room for improvement.  Perhaps in the chaos they're not queuing up their splash always, which causes a delay.  Also, some Paladins may not realise that they can queue up a splash ring and cast other spells afterwards while still maintaining the ring.  Then use the ring when they need it.  It doesn't lockout using other spells.


On the emote where the boss wants to kill a toon...that toon still needs to run TO the boss. Otherwise the tank has to chase it down...melee DPS can't hit the boss...and the tank could die by a bad round or being OOR of heelerz.  Is there a pattern that helps a toon know they are about to be smacked?

It seems like the boss "glares" at a toon then will smack that toon...is this accurate? Or is the "glares" related to the Death Strike buff?  Anyone have any insight on it?

Knowing you are about to get smacks means the toon can head to the boss...but if the "glare" is for Death Strike then that toon needs to get to the group curer to cure that thing ASAP.

I clarified this in the strategy update post.


So far, this event has been herding cats (funny how the boss is a rat huh?) but it will get better...folks just need to keep working the strat Furro is implementing until everyone is comfortable with it....so lets stop the bitching about "going back to strat 'x'" please.  Furro is working hard to refine the strat as he finds what works best...complaining in FLRaids doesn't help folks focus on the strat at hand...it simply confused people.

Respectfully, to one or more individuals who believe because we've defeated this event a number of times in the past, that the strategy was somehow working is just false.  There are times we need to completely adjust our tactics for events, or tweak/polish existing tactics to be more effective.  This is a case of the former, not the latter.  I believe this is one of the most challenging events of the entire expansion.  How we come together and tackle challenging events says a lot about us as a team.  Freelance puts a lot of emphasis on teamwork and improving our overall performance as a team.  Our efforts on challenging events make us stronger as a team and helps prepare us for future challenges.

I'll post the strategy update in a couple hours.

Later,
-F

Gimamam

  • Pie Hoarder
  • ***
  • Posts: 107
  • Karma: +6/-0
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: TBM - Plane of Health - T2 - Stem the Tide
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2016, 11:50:12 PM »
Quote
While adds are inactive doesn't prevent a tank from aggroing them.


yeah, we can aggro them. but they do not retain it.

i have terrored my ass off, ae'd them before they are active. and the only time i get them and keep them is after they are live.

Furro

  • Global Moderator
  • Pies Anonymous
  • *****
  • Posts: 5132
  • Karma: +12/-12
  • freelance raider
    • View Profile
Re: TBM - Plane of Health - T2 - Stem the Tide
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2016, 12:05:54 AM »
Quote
While adds are inactive doesn't prevent a tank from aggroing them.


yeah, we can aggro them. but they do not retain it.

i have terrored my ass off, ae'd them before they are active. and the only time i get them and keep them is after they are live.

Really?  I never knew that.  Interesting.

I guess in a way, it may not matter.  Can the tanks snap up aggro as they go active if someone happens to land a nuke a split second before hand?  It may be worth the risk, as we can eek out a bit more damage early.

Raccoo

  • Jr. Pie Eater
  • **
  • Posts: 89
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
Re: TBM - Plane of Health - T2 - Stem the Tide
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2016, 12:17:30 AM »
The other side of this is, we've been discussing whether or not we could ignore the totem during adds.  Minisca believes we can fight through it.

I was thinking that the totem effects are cumulative. But I haven't checked to be sure. Seemed like I was taking more damage when near 2+.

Furro

  • Global Moderator
  • Pies Anonymous
  • *****
  • Posts: 5132
  • Karma: +12/-12
  • freelance raider
    • View Profile
Re: TBM - Plane of Health - T2 - Stem the Tide
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2016, 12:36:36 AM »
The other side of this is, we've been discussing whether or not we could ignore the totem during adds.  Minisca believes we can fight through it.

I was thinking that the totem effects are cumulative. But I haven't checked to be sure. Seemed like I was taking more damage when near 2+.

It's possible.  All the more reason to expedite our add killing, to not end up in a situation where we have more than one totem up in our immediate vicinity.