Author Topic: Sk's can't tank.... defensives by the numbers.  (Read 1288 times)


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Sk's can't tank.... defensives by the numbers.
« on: March 07, 2016, 04:40:12 AM »
Knight Defensives.

Recently there are a few changes that went into effect that gave knights the Defensive Proficiency that Warriors had.  Now this wasn’t a popular decision within the Warrior ranks, and while I agree that the knights as a group needed SOMETHING to help out, we didn’t need a direct copy/paste of the warrior abilities.  That is too powerful considering the stacking abilities of ‘Vie’ type effects.  This post isn’t about arguing the right/wrong of what DBG did.  This post is about talking how the math and the abilities work as a whole.

There is a good write-up of how AC, Damage Bonus, Damage Interval, and how mitigation works done by Tearsin on the DBG boards:
Some of this post will use information from there, and from other searchable sources as well as everything personally tested for numbers.

Assuming all abilities are at rank 3 or fully purchased AA.

Mitigation abilities:
Knights Sedulity – 5% innate mitigation.

Defensive Proficiency – granted by Weapon Stances AA. – 30% mitigation.

Unholy Guardian (paladin version – Holy Guardian) – 36% mitigation.  Timer 16. 2 minute duration, non extendable.

Vie/Absorb abilities:
Doomscale Mantle – 35% absorb of incoming melee damage, max 1,214,845 damage. Fades after 1 min duration base. Timer 4 extendable to 1m45s.

Impudent Influence – 20% absorb of incoming melee damage, max 531,678 damage, defensive proc of a lifetap, increase of a small amount of AC. Fades after 2 min duration base or 48 counters of the lifetap/heal fired. Timer 10 extendable to 3m24s

Vizat’s Carapace – 20% absorb of incoming melee damage, max 575,174 damage, defensive proc of a lifetap, increase of a small amount of AC. Fades after 2 min duration base or 32 counters of the lifetap fired. Timer 10 extendable to 3m24s

Repel – 90% absorb of incoming melee damage, max 35592 or 3 charges (6 with AA – Enduring Reproval)

Vizat’s Skin – Self buff defensive proc – 100% absorb of incoming melee damage, max 5613, 3 charges per proc.

Cascading Theft of Defense – AA proc off of terrors – 100% absorb of incoming melee damage, max 4600 per hit, 5 charges per proc, max total absorb is 34000. (doesn’t make sense since 5x4600 = 23000, won’t hit max)

Don’t think this counts as a vie, but I couldn’t find a mob that would hit over 25k reliably to test it in a non raid environment to see stacking.  I am looking for a good way to test this better.
Reaver’s Bargain – Consumes 750 endurance per second to allow you to absorb 1% of incoming melee damage with your mana, and protects against 75% of damage over 25,000 per strike up to 1,500,000 total damage, and increases your unconscious health by 50,000 points for 2.5 min.  Once started the Reaver’s Bargain cannot be ended early and should your mana or endurance drop below 20% you will be overcome with Reaver’s Exhaustion which ends the bargain and drains your remaining mana and endurance.

Outside Buffs usually in the form of Vie/absorb type abilities:

Shining Bastion – 10% absorb, cleric spell.
Greater Ward of Vie – 10% absorb, cleric spell.
Aura of the Reverent – 4% absorb, max 1278, cleric spell.

Right now, the Two knight mitigation abilities DO stack and work concurrently with each other.  This gives a reduction of 35% off of the DAMAGE INTERVAL (DI) that is part of any mob’s hit.  Shielding as referenced in the post above is a reduction in a mob’s DAMAGE BONUS (DB) that is part of their hits.  Currently this is capped on gear at 35%.
Damage as far as I can tell from testing is reduced by mitigation first, and then by absorb values.

So you end up with a formula that looks like:
(DB*(1-Shielding/100))+(1-Mitigation/100)*DI*(1-20))*(1-Absorb/100) = Final hit.

Unholy/Holy Guardian mitigation disc does not stack with the Stance AA, but it does stack with the Knight’s Sedulity AA, ultimately producing a 41% reduction to the DI value of the mobs hit table.

Knight Absorb abilities/discs do not stack with each other, but will stack with the mitigation abilities.  You can have multiple of them up on you at a time, but they will not stack to give you a lower hit.  They fire in order of highest percent blocked by the spell/ability, not by the total amount blocked.

Vizat’s skin (100% - 5613 hit)> Cascading Theft of Defense (100% - 4600 hit) > Repel  (90%)> Mantle (35%) > Carapace/Impudent (20%)> SB/Vie (10%) > Aura of the Reverent (4%)

This is the order that abilities would fire if multiple are up on the same person.  And only 1 of these abilities would reduce the damage on a hit at a time.  With this in mind – you would want to be sure to max out the absorb values for the incoming damage you are taking.

So, this leads to issues if the mobs damage output per hit is high. 

Ex. On a mob that is hitting for 9k after mitigation, the Vizat’s skin, Cascading Theft of Defense and Repel would reduce the overall individual hit further than what the other abilities would. Skin:  9000-5613 = 3387, Cascading:  9000-4600 = 4400, Repel:  9000-(9000*.9)=900 Where with Mantle: 9000-(9000*.35)=5850, Carapace: 9000-(9000*.2)=7200, SB: 9000-(9000*.1)=8100

You can see that the hits are far lower when not relying solely on the activated percentage reducing discs vs a hard capped specific damage reduction.

But instead, let’s have the mob hitting for 20k. Skin: 20000-5613 = 14387, Cascading: 20000-4600 = 15400, Repel: 20000-(20000*.9)=2000 Mantle: 20000-(20000*.35)=13000, Carapace: 20000-(20000*.2)=16000, SB: 20000-(20000*.1)=18000

Your damage incoming isn’t as spread as wide now.

And now, let’s have the mob hitting for 50k. Skin: 50000-5613 = 44387, Cascading: 50000-4600 = 45400, Repel: 50000-(50000*.9)(subject to hit cap of 35592 now)=14408 Mantle: 50000-(50000*.35)=32500, Carapace: 50000-(50000*.2)=40000, SB: 50000-(50000*.1)=45000

Skin becomes a detriment at an extra 11887 per hit over mantle. If a mob is hitting you and uses all three charges on skin for a series of hits – that’s a potential 35661 damage that could have been avoided. And 5 charges on Cascading could net you an extra 64500 damage over mantle alone (12900 per hit).

This leads to having a desire/need to not use Skin or Cascading during raids/group situations where the per hit cap would be more detrimental than helpful if Mantle/Carapace are needing to be used. You can choose to not use Skin on your own as it is a self buff spell that you have to cast.  However, you would have to block Cascading theft of defense via the /blockspell command. 
/blockspell add me 16101 should add it to the blocked list
/blockspell remove me 16101 should remove it from the blocked list. 

But this is really only needed for mobs that the per hit reduction of the caps on skin and cascading are less than the per hit reductions made by mantle and carapace.

Repel is the odd duck out – since it has such a high limit, odds are that in a group setting, the limit is not going to get reached until the 3rd or successive hits.  Whereas, on a raid, that limit could be reached or almost reached in the first hit causing the buff to fade on a partial absorb on the second incoming damage hit.  The larger cap on it makes it still worthwhile to use even with mantle/carapace running.  Your personal mileage may vary and you may choose not to use this to prevent a larger spike of damage on the second or third incoming hits while opting to have a smoother distribution from just the absorbs from mantle/carapace.

Below are some numbers from actual mob interactions. Standing there and letting a mob beat on me for a good duration to make sure to record the 20 individual damage hits that they were capable of.  The first column is a toon that does not have Knight’s Sedulity, the second is with just Knight’s Sedulity (effectively DI-1), and the third is Knight’s Sedulity+DP (effectively DI-7). But to figure the true DI value, take the max hit, subtract the DB and divide by twenty. Play with the rounding cuz Sony liked rounding and you have a DI of roughly 566 (566.55). This mob is seemingly endowed with a 1969 DB after shielding (3029 or so without shielding).

Mob was a Senshali shadowblade in PoShadow.

   Non-Sedulity   DI      Sedulity Only   DI      Sedulity + DP   DI
   13300           566      12734           539      9334           368
   12734           567      12195           537      8966           368
   12167           567      11658           539      8598           369
   11600           566      11119           538      8229           368
   11034           567      10581           538      7861           368
   10467           567      10043           539      7493           369
    9900            566       9504            538      7124           368
    9334            567       8966            538      6756           368
    8767            566       8428            538      6388           368
    8201            567       7890            539      6020           369
    7634            567       7351            538      5651           368
    7067            566       6813            538      5283           368
    6501            567       6275            539      4915           369
    5934            566       5736            538      4546           368
    5368            567       5198            538      4178           368
    4801            567       4660            539      3810           369
    4234            566       4121            538      3441           368
    3668            567       3583            538      3073           368
    3101            566       3045            538      2705           368
    2535                         2507                        2337   
DB    1969      DB           1969      DB           1969   

The numbers in the DI column are off due to rounding (Sony math!), but you can see that for each, the percentage reduction is present:  538.25/566.55 = 95.00% Effectively 5% reduction in DI with Sedulity. And 368.25/566.55 = 64.99% Effectively 35% reduction in DI with Sedulity + DP. (proving they stack)

This needs to be pointed out that % mitigation abilities are NOT taking 35% off the final hits, but 35% off of only the DI portion of the hits – remember the formula above.

Warriors with their innate 5% and running Last Stand will end up with a 50% reduction in the DI value.  The resultant DI on the mob listed above would be 566.55*.5 = 283.275 and their max hit would be 7634 (rounding errors again, but think effectively 10 DI values off the original hits). You can look at this then as 7634/13300 = 57.39% of the full hit, but do not mistake that you are receiving the full 50% off the DI.

Given the above, you can plug some numbers into the formula given early to find some per hit damages.
(DB*(1-Shielding/100)+(1-Mitigation/100)*DI*(1-20))*(1-Absorb/100) = Final hit.

For the max hit without mitigation:
(1969+(1*566.55*20))*1 = 13300

For the min hit without mitigation:
(1969+(1*566.55*1))*1 = 2535.55 (2535 actual hit)

From these you can find what your max hits would be with Sedulity, DP and Unholy/Holy Guardian.

(1969+(.95*566.55*20))*1 = 12733 (12734 actual hit)

Sedulity + DP:
(1969+(.65*566.55*20))*1 = 9334.15 (9334 actual hit)

Sedulity + Unholy/Holy Guardian:
(1969+(.59*566.55*20))*1 = 8654.29 (8654 actual hit)

Moving on to include some of the absorb discs:

KS + DP + Mantle:
(1969+(.65*566.55*20))*.65 = 6067.1975 (6068 actual hit)

KS + DP + Carapace/Impudent:
(1969+(.65*566.55*20))*.8 = 7467.32 (7468 actual hit)

Blah Blah Blah, you get the idea at this point. Below are some more tested numbers with specific abilities.
DP: Defensive Proficiency
KS: Knight’s Sedulity
VC: Vizat’s Carapace/Impudent Influence (both same percentage.)
UG: Unholy Guardian
SB: Shining Bastion/Vie (both same percentage.)
AR: Aura of the Reverent
CD: Cascading Theft of Defense
Skin: Vizat’s Skin

Non tank   13300   11970 with vie
No DP                      12734   
DP Alone                   9334   
DP + DM                   6068   
DP + VC                    7468   
DP + SB                    8401   
DP + Vie                    8401   
DP + SB+Vie             8401   
DP + UG                    8654   
DP + Repel                  934   
DP + Skin                    3721   = 9334-5613
DP + Repel+Skin       3721   (showing the precedence of Skin over Repel percentages)
DM Alone                   8278   
DM + SB                    8278   (showing the precedence of Mantle over SB percentages)
DM + Repel                1274   (showing the precedence of Repel over DM percentages)
DM + Skin                  7121   
VC Alone                   10188   
VC + SB                   10188   
VC + Repel                1274   
VC + skin                   7121   (showing the precedence of Skin over VC percentages)
UG Alone                   8654   
UG + SB                   7789   
UG + Repel                 866   
UG + Skin                 3041   
AR Alone                   12225   
AR +DP                     8961   
AR+DP+VC               7468   (showing the precedence of VC over Aura percentages)
AR + VC                   10188   (showing the precedence of VC over Aura percentages)
Skin Alone                  7121   
Skin + Aura                7121   
Skin + SB                   7121   
SB alone                   11461   
Vie alone                   11461   
SB+Vie                   11461   
Skin + Repel           7121   (showing the precedence of Skin over Repel percentages)
CD + DP                   4734   
Skin + CD + DP          3721   (showing the precedence of Skin over Cascading defense)

Below are a couple of options given the extendable nature of the Mantle and Carapace/Impudent abilities for long duration tanking in a pinch. Also, due to counters and damage limits, Mantle and Carapace/Impudent might not last full duration.  Expect Bargain to not last full duration unless you can pick up some endurance. Expect to use Thought Leech as soon as Bargain fades or you are potentially at 0 mana/end. (side note – I labeled duration wrong on Bargain and didn’t realize till after pictures were done. 2.5 min instead of 2 min. Didn’t feel like recreating pictures.) Roughly 13-15 minutes if we needed it.

« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 03:37:27 AM by Gimamam »


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Re: Sk's can't tank.... defensives by the numbers.
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2016, 06:15:50 AM »
As of Aug 17th you probably wanna keep Skin on all the time according to DBG changes to mitigation

- The way that spells and abilities that protect against a percentage of incoming spell or melee damage has been adjusted to more accurately calculate the amount of damage each buff will protect you from and select the best option.
- - Previously, the buff with the highest percentage was always considered better, but this behavior did not account for the amount of damage being done by the hit relative to the maximum per-hit protection that these buffs offered.
- Corrected an issue where spells that modify the body type of their target would cause problems with subsequent spells with the same effect.


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Re: Sk's can't tank.... defensives by the numbers.
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2016, 05:51:01 PM »
working on an update for this - time constraints  :'(