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Freelance Ramblings / Re: Freelance DKP
« on: February 09, 2009, 06:42:44 PM »
I haven't raided on Fennin in a long time but I still like to see my friends there continue to progress >.<
I have had experience with multiple types of dkp systems, council loot systems and /ran loot distribution. I would like to point a few things out if I am not being too bold.
Primarily I want to point out that this transition can not come at a better time. Once you have started to break into tier one sof and solteris you will begin to move rapidly through content - but only if you distribute loot fairly with emphasis on your higher raid attendance members. Your raid team is only as good as your weakest members and DKP allows you to gear up your entire force evenly and progress at a reasonable rate as a team.
Secondly, and most importantly, please give your full support to Furro and YOUR raid team (for it is YOUR team) during this process. There are going to be rocky moments and what may appear to be unfair loot awards. Switching to DKP is an evolutionary process and requires full support from all team mates to make it go smoothly. No system is perfect and that is why adjustments need to be made.
Thirdly I would like to express my congratulations to you all for taking this important step in moving forward as a team >.<
Now, not to pick on my brother darkwaters, but I am going to correct his misconceptions. I want to apologise to him becasue when he was asking me about DKP systems I was distracted by a series of difficult raids. My answers to him were vague and unexplained, as a result he drew some wrong conclusions.
Quoting darkwaters, "Minimum Bids
A minimum bid placed on any given item is a good method of ensureing that people are less inclined to stockpile dkp and then outbid others with massive numbers. "
Not precisely. Minimum bids give you a place to start. They are determined by event values and they determine maxmum bid values.
Quoting darkwaters, "Maximum Bids
A maximum bid placed on an item (ie, 'Bid on Dark's Old Coke Can (min 5 - max 15)') is a way to make sure new members (with less dkp banked) have an honest chance at getting loot."
Maximum bid caps serve a few purposes. First it ensures that there are fewer tie breakers. It also serves to prevent 'player A' from blowing all his dkp on one item. If 'player A' buys one 'HOT' upgrade with 1 months dkp and dies 3 times as much as 'player B' who purchased 3 upgrades with 1 months dkp then who do you think is contributing the most to the raid? Minimum and maximum bids also allow for content tiering.
Quoting darkwaters : "Item Values
DKP values for new content priced higher than old content. Why?
1) Encourages older members to spend DKP on new content.
2) Encourages new members to spend DKP on farm content, and still get upgrades. "
This is content tiering. What content tiering does is simple. Primarily it encourages all members of the raid team to show up for the progression raids (new content that is not on farm). Thus you earn more dkp for those new difficult fights and you are more likely to be there for them. Members who are poorly geared will then be able to buy the previous contents gear at the old values while earning twice as much dkp. It allows these poorly geared individulals to gear up quickly while the better geared people are getting the hot items from the new content (and paying for through the nose for them I might add >.<). Again your force is only as good as your weakest player.
Quoting darkwaters "DKP Bonuses
A DKP bonus to be awarded to attendees for attendance in content that they do not bid in. This encourages people to attend any event. Even if they do not gain loot rights, they still benefit."
Er... no... >.<
If you earn dkp from attending an event then you are allready recieving benefits, you don't need special treatment just because you attended an event and didn't win anything.
DKP bonuses should be awarded for these sorts of reasons
1) an early start is called a week in advance for a raid and a dkp bonus for being on time is announced
2) first time kill on a difficult event - good job here is some DKP for joo!!!
3) it is the last event of the night, it is late, the event is difficult and people are logging because they got dkp and loot and are happy. Um... double dkp if you stay and we win babe. Lol it may seem silly but we have won some hard raids with low numbers because we WANTED to.
Quoting darkwaters: "Bid Rounds
Haveing 2-3 rounds of bidding discourages hell-bent-for-leather bids... People will be more conservative durring bids, and give managment a relativly accurate gauge of item-values. (m&m may change for each round) "
Having 3 bid rounds is a good idea. Keep in mind to keep the loot process as short as possible so you have more time to raid. You will probably want to have multiple 'raid officers' to do loot quickly. IE while officer 1 is handling the fine steel mace officer 2 is taking bids on the type 1 arrow and officer 3 is recieiving bids on that uber kobold shield.
The reason for 3 rounds of biding in a closed bid system is that you want to allow a player to bid a min-bid, a mid-bid and a max-bid. For example:
Min bid on a fine steel sword is 1dkp. Tells are sent to an officer as bid rounds are called.
Round 1: Player A bids 1dkp, player B bids 1dkp and player C bids 1dkp.
Round 2: player A bids 2dkp, player B bids 2 dkp and player C bids 4dkp
Round 3: player A does not raise his bid because he will not pay more than the 2dkp he has allready bif for the fine steel sword. Player B bids 3 dkp and Player C bids 6 dkp.
Winner: Player C is the winner for 4dkp. Player C outbid player B by 1 dkp but cannot out bid himself. The award is then announced in raid chat 'Grats player C on fine steel sword for 4dkp"
Now, that is in a closed bid system. Why is a closed bid system the best? It prevents a player from waiting until all bids are in and then sniping the loot with a final dkp call that is only 1 point above the current highest bid. If someone does that they are just slowing down the loot distribution process. Such a person has little respect for the time of his team mates and only cares about what he can loot as opposed to moving forward as a team.
Quoting darkwaters "RA / Loot History
What about ties on bids? How can loot rights be established? One time tested method is RA/LH. RA/LH favors members who have a better RA% than someone who does not, but also takes into consideration Loot History. Someone who has looted less then the other bidder may get favored. This allows loot to be evenly distributed. High RA with low LH equals a good chance at being granted loot rights."
The whole point of a DKP system is to encourage high RA so that you have a steady, evenly geared and reliable raid force to work with each schedualed raid night. You cannot do anything if no one shows up. it benefits everyone who is willing to commit to such a team. Hell if you don't wnat to raid to progress as a team then why join a raid team? You might as well go do group progression - the gear is nuts.
That being said, loot history really plays no role in a dkp system other than to encumber it. RA over the past thirty days should be the primary way of determing the winner of a dkp tie. Then if 30 day is tied go to 60 day and then 90 and then life time.
Also constraints should be placed on how many tie breakers you can win in a month. IE if you won a max bid tie in the last 30 days you cannot win another one until 30 days are up.
Quoting darkwaters: "DKP is also a good way to guage a raid force's need to raid any given contend. When management see's bids slacking off for some raid, its a good indicator that people dont need gear from that event... thus allowing management to plan for new content. "
Very true. In content prior to solteris you will see alot more rots because there are a large amount of class specific items.
In solteris and sof/sod content you will see less or no class specific items. So these will not rot (exception being like pally/sk swords etc.). So, yes dark, this is very true. As a raid team sees more and more things rot in previous content it is time to release that content to pick up raids and focus on farming the next content up that they have beaten more than once and then hit up the next highest content available to them for progression.
Hope this helps guys. Primarily looking at Furros system and some comments I think some definition of what FL is going to expect from a DKP system might be beneficial.
Currently my guild uses this sort of system which works very well and is easily adaptable toa pick up team:
Dkp is awarded per an event (per an attempt on progression targets and per a win on farm targets [if a farm target wipes us half of the assigned dkp value is awarded]) and checks are taken at mid-event intervals to count towards RA.
Minimum bid is set as a multiple of the event value.
Maximum bid is set as a multiple of the event value.
Bidding is done via tells to the raid officer handling an item (closed bid system) in three rounds.
Tie breakers are done by 30 day RA (so if a person that has taken a year long break returns they can then gear up in farm content and if they have good RA over last couple months it has no effect on what they can win at all).
I would like to point out Furro that dkp that is awarded by the hour does little to encourage a person to be on time. Bonuses for being on time are extremely detrmental to those who cannot be on time due to RL.
Those who are always late due to RL probably know that this will effect their dkp earnings and RA. They will be on time when they can but have made the right choice in choosing RL over raiding EQ.
Also I would like to encourage you to keep the system simple and evolutionary.
As a good transitory period you might continue /ran 1000 for one month but simply award dkp for that whole month and when a person wins a /ran 1000 they get a minimum bid charge to their earned dkp. This would allow a dkp base to be built up with out having everyone have the same amount of dkp built up. If someone wins a bunch of /ran 1000's and goes negative their dkp could be reset to 0 when the full switch was made.
I am so encouraged to see you guys going this route and I know my brother is VERY excited about it >.< GL, kick ass and please, please ;tell maelin.wildwaters to show me those uber loots yer gonna be winning >.<
sincerely - wildwaters
I have had experience with multiple types of dkp systems, council loot systems and /ran loot distribution. I would like to point a few things out if I am not being too bold.
Primarily I want to point out that this transition can not come at a better time. Once you have started to break into tier one sof and solteris you will begin to move rapidly through content - but only if you distribute loot fairly with emphasis on your higher raid attendance members. Your raid team is only as good as your weakest members and DKP allows you to gear up your entire force evenly and progress at a reasonable rate as a team.
Secondly, and most importantly, please give your full support to Furro and YOUR raid team (for it is YOUR team) during this process. There are going to be rocky moments and what may appear to be unfair loot awards. Switching to DKP is an evolutionary process and requires full support from all team mates to make it go smoothly. No system is perfect and that is why adjustments need to be made.
Thirdly I would like to express my congratulations to you all for taking this important step in moving forward as a team >.<
Now, not to pick on my brother darkwaters, but I am going to correct his misconceptions. I want to apologise to him becasue when he was asking me about DKP systems I was distracted by a series of difficult raids. My answers to him were vague and unexplained, as a result he drew some wrong conclusions.
Quoting darkwaters, "Minimum Bids
A minimum bid placed on any given item is a good method of ensureing that people are less inclined to stockpile dkp and then outbid others with massive numbers. "
Not precisely. Minimum bids give you a place to start. They are determined by event values and they determine maxmum bid values.
Quoting darkwaters, "Maximum Bids
A maximum bid placed on an item (ie, 'Bid on Dark's Old Coke Can (min 5 - max 15)') is a way to make sure new members (with less dkp banked) have an honest chance at getting loot."
Maximum bid caps serve a few purposes. First it ensures that there are fewer tie breakers. It also serves to prevent 'player A' from blowing all his dkp on one item. If 'player A' buys one 'HOT' upgrade with 1 months dkp and dies 3 times as much as 'player B' who purchased 3 upgrades with 1 months dkp then who do you think is contributing the most to the raid? Minimum and maximum bids also allow for content tiering.
Quoting darkwaters : "Item Values
DKP values for new content priced higher than old content. Why?
1) Encourages older members to spend DKP on new content.
2) Encourages new members to spend DKP on farm content, and still get upgrades. "
This is content tiering. What content tiering does is simple. Primarily it encourages all members of the raid team to show up for the progression raids (new content that is not on farm). Thus you earn more dkp for those new difficult fights and you are more likely to be there for them. Members who are poorly geared will then be able to buy the previous contents gear at the old values while earning twice as much dkp. It allows these poorly geared individulals to gear up quickly while the better geared people are getting the hot items from the new content (and paying for through the nose for them I might add >.<). Again your force is only as good as your weakest player.
Quoting darkwaters "DKP Bonuses
A DKP bonus to be awarded to attendees for attendance in content that they do not bid in. This encourages people to attend any event. Even if they do not gain loot rights, they still benefit."
Er... no... >.<
If you earn dkp from attending an event then you are allready recieving benefits, you don't need special treatment just because you attended an event and didn't win anything.
DKP bonuses should be awarded for these sorts of reasons
1) an early start is called a week in advance for a raid and a dkp bonus for being on time is announced
2) first time kill on a difficult event - good job here is some DKP for joo!!!
3) it is the last event of the night, it is late, the event is difficult and people are logging because they got dkp and loot and are happy. Um... double dkp if you stay and we win babe. Lol it may seem silly but we have won some hard raids with low numbers because we WANTED to.
Quoting darkwaters: "Bid Rounds
Haveing 2-3 rounds of bidding discourages hell-bent-for-leather bids... People will be more conservative durring bids, and give managment a relativly accurate gauge of item-values. (m&m may change for each round) "
Having 3 bid rounds is a good idea. Keep in mind to keep the loot process as short as possible so you have more time to raid. You will probably want to have multiple 'raid officers' to do loot quickly. IE while officer 1 is handling the fine steel mace officer 2 is taking bids on the type 1 arrow and officer 3 is recieiving bids on that uber kobold shield.
The reason for 3 rounds of biding in a closed bid system is that you want to allow a player to bid a min-bid, a mid-bid and a max-bid. For example:
Min bid on a fine steel sword is 1dkp. Tells are sent to an officer as bid rounds are called.
Round 1: Player A bids 1dkp, player B bids 1dkp and player C bids 1dkp.
Round 2: player A bids 2dkp, player B bids 2 dkp and player C bids 4dkp
Round 3: player A does not raise his bid because he will not pay more than the 2dkp he has allready bif for the fine steel sword. Player B bids 3 dkp and Player C bids 6 dkp.
Winner: Player C is the winner for 4dkp. Player C outbid player B by 1 dkp but cannot out bid himself. The award is then announced in raid chat 'Grats player C on fine steel sword for 4dkp"
Now, that is in a closed bid system. Why is a closed bid system the best? It prevents a player from waiting until all bids are in and then sniping the loot with a final dkp call that is only 1 point above the current highest bid. If someone does that they are just slowing down the loot distribution process. Such a person has little respect for the time of his team mates and only cares about what he can loot as opposed to moving forward as a team.
Quoting darkwaters "RA / Loot History
What about ties on bids? How can loot rights be established? One time tested method is RA/LH. RA/LH favors members who have a better RA% than someone who does not, but also takes into consideration Loot History. Someone who has looted less then the other bidder may get favored. This allows loot to be evenly distributed. High RA with low LH equals a good chance at being granted loot rights."
The whole point of a DKP system is to encourage high RA so that you have a steady, evenly geared and reliable raid force to work with each schedualed raid night. You cannot do anything if no one shows up. it benefits everyone who is willing to commit to such a team. Hell if you don't wnat to raid to progress as a team then why join a raid team? You might as well go do group progression - the gear is nuts.
That being said, loot history really plays no role in a dkp system other than to encumber it. RA over the past thirty days should be the primary way of determing the winner of a dkp tie. Then if 30 day is tied go to 60 day and then 90 and then life time.
Also constraints should be placed on how many tie breakers you can win in a month. IE if you won a max bid tie in the last 30 days you cannot win another one until 30 days are up.
Quoting darkwaters: "DKP is also a good way to guage a raid force's need to raid any given contend. When management see's bids slacking off for some raid, its a good indicator that people dont need gear from that event... thus allowing management to plan for new content. "
Very true. In content prior to solteris you will see alot more rots because there are a large amount of class specific items.
In solteris and sof/sod content you will see less or no class specific items. So these will not rot (exception being like pally/sk swords etc.). So, yes dark, this is very true. As a raid team sees more and more things rot in previous content it is time to release that content to pick up raids and focus on farming the next content up that they have beaten more than once and then hit up the next highest content available to them for progression.
Hope this helps guys. Primarily looking at Furros system and some comments I think some definition of what FL is going to expect from a DKP system might be beneficial.
Currently my guild uses this sort of system which works very well and is easily adaptable toa pick up team:
Dkp is awarded per an event (per an attempt on progression targets and per a win on farm targets [if a farm target wipes us half of the assigned dkp value is awarded]) and checks are taken at mid-event intervals to count towards RA.
Minimum bid is set as a multiple of the event value.
Maximum bid is set as a multiple of the event value.
Bidding is done via tells to the raid officer handling an item (closed bid system) in three rounds.
Tie breakers are done by 30 day RA (so if a person that has taken a year long break returns they can then gear up in farm content and if they have good RA over last couple months it has no effect on what they can win at all).
I would like to point out Furro that dkp that is awarded by the hour does little to encourage a person to be on time. Bonuses for being on time are extremely detrmental to those who cannot be on time due to RL.
Those who are always late due to RL probably know that this will effect their dkp earnings and RA. They will be on time when they can but have made the right choice in choosing RL over raiding EQ.
Also I would like to encourage you to keep the system simple and evolutionary.
As a good transitory period you might continue /ran 1000 for one month but simply award dkp for that whole month and when a person wins a /ran 1000 they get a minimum bid charge to their earned dkp. This would allow a dkp base to be built up with out having everyone have the same amount of dkp built up. If someone wins a bunch of /ran 1000's and goes negative their dkp could be reset to 0 when the full switch was made.
I am so encouraged to see you guys going this route and I know my brother is VERY excited about it >.< GL, kick ass and please, please ;tell maelin.wildwaters to show me those uber loots yer gonna be winning >.<
sincerely - wildwaters