Author Topic: All you ever wanted to know about haste!  (Read 10430 times)

Baello

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All you ever wanted to know about haste!
« on: September 25, 2007, 11:07:05 AM »
I've been asked this question a few times, by raiders and non raiders alike.  Some people will consider this common knowledge, others might learn a few things.  So it's time for another Baello guide!

Haste.  That elusive thing that makes you swing faster.  You know you like it.  You always want more.  But just how does it work?

Firstly.  There are 3 types of haste: Worn, spell, overhaste.  Worn comes from items, only one counts, best one wins.  So if your wearing a 45% haste and a 40% haste item, you have 45% in worn haste.  Spell comes from those lovely enchanter and shaman spells we all love so much, but the rule of 1 applies here too.  You may have seen shaman's talisman of celerity stacking with ellowind.  Well, the haste isn't stacking.  They stack because you still get the buffs of ellowind.  Talisman of celerity is 60% haste.  Ellowind (all forms and ranks) is 68% haste.  So with both on your haste from spells is 68%.  If you have ellowind, go ahead and click off talisman in other words.  The last form of haste is the most rare, it's called overhaste.  Only a bard can give you this, but it stacks with both worn and spell haste.  The best bard overhaste is Aura of the Muse (their aura) which grants 30% overhaste.

Now, with a 45% haste item, that puts your maximum haste at 143%.  But what does that mean having 143% haste?  Well, first you have to understand that haste is not a direct reduction of delay.  It is an increase in swings.  So 143% isn't a 143% reduction in delay, it's swinging 143% more times.  So let's break it down to the math.

Effective delay = delay/(1+haste)

So let's assume your using the same offhand weapon I am, Thunderclap.  It is a 33/24 weapon.  Let's figure out it's delay with our theoretical max haste.

24 (delay) / (1 + 1.43) = 9.9 (delay is always rounded UP) = 10

That puts our delay at 10.  Now this is a magic number, 10 is the absolute lowest your delay can ever go.  No matter how the math turns out, you will never swing faster than a 10 delay.  This brings up another issue, what if you have a faster weapon.

Well let's use real world numbers here.  Some questioned why I didn't roll on the dagger that dropped from king in RSS, well these numbers will answer that question.  I have 36% worn haste.  I always have ellowind for 68% spell haste.  I never have bard overhaste.  So my total haste is 104%.  I am currently using Discordant Dagger of Night.  A 25/21 weapon in primary.  Let's figure what it's real world delay is.

21 / (1 + 1.04) = 10.3 = 11

So my real delay is 11.  Making my primary a 25/11 weapon.  1 over the minimum delay.  Now let's look at the dagger that dropped.  It was a 24/16 weapon.  Sounds far superior to the one I was using, but let's figure it's real world stats.

16 / (1 + 1.04) = 7.8 = 8 (rounded) = 10 (minimum delay).

As you can see, it went well below the minimum delay.  So that weapon effectively is a 24/10 weapon.  As a rogue, giving up 1 damage for a reduction of 1 delay is most certainly not worth it thanks to backstab being reliant on weapon damage.

So now let's work a little math magic.  How do you figure out exactly how much haste you need to make your weapon swing as fast as it possibly can?  Let's use the same formula we have, just changing things around a little bit.  We know we want the effective haste to be 10.  We have the original delay.  So let's use my weapon and figure exactly how much haste I need to get to a 10 delay.

10 = 21 / (1 + x) x here being how much haste we need.
10(1 + x) = 21 simplified the math here
10 + 10x = 21 simplified further
10x = 11 simplified yet further
x = 1.1

We now see that I would need 110% total haste to reach a delay of 10.  So  I would need 6% more haste to get down to 10 delay on my primary weapon.  You can use the same formula to calculate how much haste you need to get your weapon down to 10 delay.

I realize this is a LOT of information to absorb, but it can help you to better plan your character and make smart gear choices.  It also unfortunately complicates your weapon choices, due largely to the minimum delay issue.  But work the math, and you can best optimize your characters weapons.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2007, 09:01:56 PM by Baello »

Tylon

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Re: All you ever wanted to know about haste!
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2007, 01:37:44 PM »
It's been a while since I went over how haste stacks but I know it used to be that spell haste + item worn haste could not go over a particular cap.   I think it used to be 100% or very close....

There is also a few items that can do overhaste via right clicky.

Heeth

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Re: All you ever wanted to know about haste!
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2007, 01:54:28 PM »
You said "The best bard overhaste song is Eriki's Psalm of Power which grants 30% overhaste."

 :o

The best Bard overhaste is our Aura (Aura of the Muse) from the PoR expansion.  It frees up a song slot and is the same overhaste + offers increased damage to spells.

Here are the details:

Aura of the Muse

Slot Description
1:  Increase Spell Damage by 30%  
2:  Increase Haste v3 (Overhaste) by 30%  
3:  Limit: Effect(Hitpoints allowed)
4:  Limit: Max Level(75) (lose 10% per level over cap)  
5:  Limit: Spell Type(Detrimental only)
6:  Limit: Target(AE PC v1 excluded)
7:  Limit: Target(PB AE excluded)
8:  Limit: Target(Targeted AE excluded)
9:  Limit: Target(Uber Giants excluded)
10:  Limit: Target(Uber Dragons excluded)
11:  Limit: Combat Skills Not Allowed

Techinically, Eriki's was never the best overhaste, even back when it came out in the OOW expansion.  The best overhaste at the time was Ancient: Call of Power, from CoA.

Anyhow, goot write up.  Just gotta get the Bard stuff up to date.

Thanks,

Heath

Baello

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Re: All you ever wanted to know about haste!
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2007, 09:44:29 PM »
Quote
It's been a while since I went over how haste stacks but I know it used to be that spell haste + item worn haste could not go over a particular cap.   I think it used to be 100% or very close....

There is also a few items that can do overhaste via right clicky.

Parses have begun showing that the haste cap may be gone over level 70, or at least raised to where we do not know the new cap.  Information is sketchy, and hard to parse for (were talking delay differences in milliseconds here).  I would love to parse for this, but it would take a larger selection of weapons than I have, and a good week of data to get a conclusive result.  If you can find me a confirmed post that the haste cap is indeed still 100% (per the 60 and below cap) I'll alter the information to make the cap 100%.

To Heeth: Updated with the aura as your best overhaste.  It's still the same overhaste % :)

Jilkk

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Re: All you ever wanted to know about haste!
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2007, 05:06:57 PM »
i use ancient call of power over the aura because of its range, the aura has a small radius, and i dont like having to recast it after i fade either. Mojo over at The Concert Hall has been doing a bunch of parses with different weapons.   http://forums.theconcerthall.net/viewtopic.php?t=3599   pretty nifty
« Last Edit: September 26, 2007, 05:18:16 PM by Jilkk »

Heeth

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Re: All you ever wanted to know about haste!
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2007, 01:59:21 PM »
Quote
i use ancient call of power over the aura because of its range, the aura has a small radius, and i dont like having to recast it after i fade either. Mojo over at The Concert Hall has been doing a bunch of parses with different weapons.   http://forums.theconcerthall.net/viewtopic.php?t=3599   pretty nifty

Here are the details of Ancient: CoP:

Slot Description
1:  Increase Spell Damage by 30%  
2:  Increase Haste v3 by 30%  
3:  Limit: Effect(Hitpoints allowed)
4:  Limit: Max Level(70) (lose 10% per level over cap)  
5:  Limit: Spell Type(Detrimental only)
6:  Limit: Target(AE PC v1 excluded)
7:  Limit: Target(PB AE excluded)
8:  Limit: Target(Targeted AE excluded)
9:  Limit: Target(Uber Giants excluded)
10:  Limit: Target(Uber Dragons excluded)
11:  Limit: Combat Skills Not Allowed


The problem with Ancient: CoP I see is:

1. The spell damage component only goes up to level 70, so any new spell your group is casting (TSS or TBS levels 71 - 75) Will be greatly reduced on the spell damage focus.

Yes you have to recast the aura after you fade, but IMO its worth the extra 5 levels of spell damage focus for your group.  But, to each their own.  I can see a use for the extra range if your a puller or the raid is spread out over a large terrain.


« Last Edit: September 27, 2007, 02:05:25 PM by Heeth »

Tylon

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Re: All you ever wanted to know about haste!
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2007, 06:56:22 PM »
Quote
Quote
It's been a while since I went over how haste stacks but I know it used to be that spell haste + item worn haste could not go over a particular cap.   I think it used to be 100% or very close....

There is also a few items that can do overhaste via right clicky.

Parses have begun showing that the haste cap may be gone over level 70, or at least raised to where we do not know the new cap.  Information is sketchy, and hard to parse for (were talking delay differences in milliseconds here).  I would love to parse for this, but it would take a larger selection of weapons than I have, and a good week of data to get a conclusive result.  If you can find me a confirmed post that the haste cap is indeed still 100% (per the 60 and below cap) I'll alter the information to make the cap 100%.

To Heeth: Updated with the aura as your best overhaste.  It's still the same overhaste % :)

Check out this post on the ranger boards from earlier this year.

http://eqoutrider.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1745&highlight=haste

Jilkk

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Re: All you ever wanted to know about haste!
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2007, 07:21:03 PM »
The problem with Ancient: CoP I see is:
 
1. The spell damage component only goes up to level 70, so any new spell your group is casting (TSS or TBS levels 71 - 75) Will be greatly reduced on the spell damage focus.
 
Yes you have to recast the aura after you fade, but IMO its worth the extra 5 levels of spell damage focus for your group.  But, to each their own.  I can see a use for the extra range if your a puller or the raid is spread out over a large terrain.

Heeth, in raids i use the aura, we are all in tight quarters in an indoor zone, it takes my selos spot in my line up, if i had another spell gem spot i would gladly use it for aura, when im pulling in groups, outside i need selos over aura, all gems are used, so bye bye aura, insert ancient call, overhaste is what i use it for anyway, i mean it doesnt help my nukes/dots, i play my druid alot when im grouped so i see exaclty how short of a range aura is, but you are right, aura is better overall.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 07:31:32 PM by Furro »