Author Topic: Freelance DKP & Random  (Read 37672 times)

Thewun

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Re: Freelance DKP
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2009, 02:09:38 AM »
Quote
 
DKP Gain, Loss & Decay
DKP Gains:

DKP Gain Formula is:

1 + ( lifetime_attendance/100)[ hour_value ( total_hours ) + trash_clearing + attendance_check ]

[1 + ( lifetime_attendance/100)][ hour_value ( total_hours ) + trash_clearing + attendance_check ]  Use that instead.  

The newcomer bonus, LRA = 100, is an insufficient incentive.  The DKP gain a person is going to get from one raid is so vastly overshadowed by a veteran's current total that the newcomer bonus will look like nothing.



Item Cost

Item Cost Formula:   [(hit_points + mana) / 2 ] / [20 + focus_value1, 2, 3...]

[(hit_points + mana) / 2  + focus_value1, 2, 3...] / [20]
Use something like this instead.  As focus_value increases the item cost will increase.






Miscellaneous Items

Items listed here will be distributed via normal /random 1000 methods.
  • Key-Type Items

Key-type items, like the txevu door keys, are going to be needed later on in an event.  As such, we should only let people who will probably be on later to use that key.  This should be rare, but I can think of at least one instance where a key-type item will drop that we've not yet done.  These things shouldn't be random'd on.



Loot Distribution Proceedure

The fact that there's even a first pass will mean the newcomer will have no chance at winning anything other than stuff no one else wants.  Removing the 2nd pass will do nothing to alleviate this problem.  If the transitory phase mechanism is kept with some positive # marker, then there's a chance for a newcomer to win anything.  The higher the # marker the better the chance for him/her.  The lower the #, the better the chance for loot to be distributed via the DKP system, ie. distributed toward those that have spent time to make FL a better team.  The balance is delicate, but done correctly most people will be happy.

LRA:
The way this is currently worked out people who take a break from FL will get double penalized through slower DKP gain and suffer from DKP decay.  That means that he has less and less incentive to come back to FL if he takes a break.  It's ok to design a system that decays some of the buying power of people who take breaks, but when you couple it with the slower DKP gain formula(due to the LRA factor) you put people into a pit they cannot get out of.  This means that while you have strong incentive for retention, you have strong disincentive for someone to come back.

Using the 30-day RA instead you have incentive for people to raid in smaller 30-day blocks, but anyone who takes a break will only have to suffer smaller gains for 30 days starting when he gets back.  

Quote
Don't get me wrong here, I want to encourage spending of DKP.  However, at the same time, I feel we need to reward regulars for attendance.   The grace period factor is there for a reason also, to lessen the hurt before decay kicks in.  Keep in mind, this grace period can be adjusted upwards if it's felt by others as too low.  Lots of options we can do here to find a balance imo.
Attendance is already rewarded with DKP.  Continued attendance is rewarded through the RA modifier in the DKP gain formula.  That RA modifier doesn't have to be LRA.

Thewun

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Re: Freelance DKP
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2009, 02:21:19 AM »
Actually, looking at that decay formula again it looks like the DKP decay isn't even a significant factor.

Quote
Decay Formula is:  current_dkp [ -0.1 (( total_attended_hours+grace)/running_total_hours)] + current_dkp

Quote
(( total_attended_hours+grace)/running_total_hours)
That part there will start to decrease in value as someone stays further and further away from FL.  When you multiply that with -.1, that product is a number that gets closer and closer to zero.  

Quote
current_dkp [ -0.1 (approaching 0)]
That's going to get closer to zero as well.

Quote
Decay Formula is:  0 + current_dkp
Finally the decay tends to do nothing the larger of a gap you have in your LRA.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 02:23:38 AM by Thewun »

Furro

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Re: Freelance DKP
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2009, 03:48:19 AM »
Quote
Quote
 
DKP Gain, Loss & Decay
DKP Gains:

DKP Gain Formula is:

1 + ( lifetime_attendance/100)[ hour_value ( total_hours ) + trash_clearing + attendance_check ]

[1 + ( lifetime_attendance/100)][ hour_value ( total_hours ) + trash_clearing + attendance_check ]  Use that instead.  

The newcomer bonus, LRA = 100, is an insufficient incentive.  The DKP gain a person is going to get from one raid is so vastly overshadowed by a veteran's current total that the newcomer bonus will look like nothing.



The bracket correction you made was my bad form in typing the formula.  We talked about this already in chat.

I won't address the newcomer RA bonus issue, as you mentioned below and I agree, transitory remaining in effect with a good threshold will always give chance to newcomers for /random that night, but still earn dkp.



Quote
Quote
 
Item Cost

Item Cost Formula:   [(hit_points + mana) / 2 ] / [20 + focus_value1, 2, 3...]

[(hit_points + mana) / 2  + focus_value1, 2, 3...] / [20]
Use something like this instead.  As focus_value increases the item cost will increase.





The formula works a little better.  This will be difficult to work out meaningful base values.  I realise I'm only covering a few variables such as hp/m and focus.  Nothing such as AC/heroics or anything is factored in.  Something to work on or search around and see how other guilds calculate it.


Quote
Quote

Miscellaneous Items

Items listed here will be distributed via normal /random 1000 methods.
  • Key-Type Items

Key-type items, like the txevu door keys, are going to be needed later on in an event.  As such, we should only let people who will probably be on later to use that key.  This should be rare, but I can think of at least one instance where a key-type item will drop that we've not yet done.  These things shouldn't be random'd on.



I agree.  There is a clause in there to address future changes.  We have in the past had areas where I looted pieces required to spawn instances, such as the Tacvi signet.  This is something we'll have to address prior to reaching the targets, but it's good to have it brought up in this discussion too.

Quote
Loot Distribution Proceedure

The fact that there's even a first pass will mean the newcomer will have no chance at winning anything other than stuff no one else wants.  Removing the 2nd pass will do nothing to alleviate this problem.  If the transitory phase mechanism is kept with some positive # marker, then there's a chance for a newcomer to win anything.  The higher the # marker the better the chance for him/her.  The lower the #, the better the chance for loot to be distributed via the DKP system, ie. distributed toward those that have spent time to make FL a better team.  The balance is delicate, but done correctly most people will be happy.

I agree here, keeping some form of tranisitory system in place with a proper threshold, should work.

The /random to determine which system is used can be done on an event basis.  If we hit multiple targets in the evening, still opens chances for /random to be applied and benefits newcomers.  Again, they would still earn DKP too in the process regardless.


Quote
LRA:
The way this is currently worked out people who take a break from FL will get double penalized through slower DKP gain and suffer from DKP decay.  That means that he has less and less incentive to come back to FL if he takes a break.  It's ok to design a system that decays some of the buying power of people who take breaks, but when you couple it with the slower DKP gain formula(due to the LRA factor) you put people into a pit they cannot get out of.  This means that while you have strong incentive for retention, you have strong disincentive for someone to come back.

Using the 30-day RA instead you have incentive for people to raid in smaller 30-day blocks, but anyone who takes a break will only have to suffer smaller gains for 30 days starting when he gets back.  


30 day RA seems to be the way to go then.  I'll try and look into the calculations for this and post them here for some input.



- Furro


Furro

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Re: Freelance DKP
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2009, 10:47:26 PM »
  
Made various changes, view the changelog for reference.

Moved the draft to first post, so it's easier to find without having to dig through the thread.



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Re: Freelance DKP
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2009, 05:56:16 PM »
OK .. please for one excuse my grammar and spelling i pay little attention to it and just try to type as fast as i can..

that being said .. while i do agree that DKP is fair based on attendance i fear this is a bad idea. Not for myself i could care less if attain gear at the raids One my guild and friends have worked their tails off helping me with various items and such and i am very happy and satisfied with what i am wearing. the ocastional upgrade for me is a good thing but not why i raid. I raid to have fun and spend time with people and to enjoy that aspect of the game. Cop will continue to encourage its members to attend freelance as a way to experiance higher content then we as a guild can currently offer.

However this is why i worry about this .. i have seen a lot of good comments going but from the same folks over and over again.. now the day furro mentioned this in the channel i didnt' see any of the positive comments i am seeing here. i saw tons of negative comments about people not coming anymore. while i do beleive freelance has a good amount of loyal people who love to raid many of them not needing the gear that we are even doing in sof. i see many known high end raiders. But we can't hold to many raids when numbers drop to low. and i am worried that folks that do show up for the chance to win some part of gear through rolls and such make a good number of the raiders. we had consistantly gone over the ideas of diff loot systems in cop and come back to the same conclusion instituting something like DKP .. would cause us to loose numbers. I want to raid and i dont' want freelance to loose so many that the team won't be able to do what it has set its sites on. so bottom line is i am concerned with numbers.

I know time will tell the outcome. so i guess i will wait for it.
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Furro

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Re: Freelance DKP
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2009, 08:22:04 PM »
  
After careful thought over the last few days, I'm removing the formula for calculating DKP earnings.  The "Points per hour" approach in a way, rewards failure, and it actually encourages people to work slowly, to gain more points.   This isn't something I want to promote.  The other issue with hourly, is maintenance.  It would be extremely mickey mouse to accurately log /who outputs hourly in a zone.  It can be parsed, but it's totally up to the logger (me), to hit a hotkey with /who output and markers every hour on the hour.   Even adding in a 5 min grace period to account for LD'ers or those out of zone due to death/RIP elapsed timers, wouldn't result in accurate counts.  There are numerous other reasons I can get into why this won't work how it's setup.


Dynamic DKP Earning

Instead of "Points per hour", I'm considering a more dynamic approach to earning DKP.   Points earned based on the total loot distribution value divided by total raid members in attendance.  For example a 35 person raid, distributing loot worth 500 DKP total would mean each person in attendance receives approximately 14 DKP.  If the same raid had 54 in attendance, each person earned 9 DKP.

Formula: [ bounty_total / raid_attendance ]

Note:  bounty_total is dynamic, that means constantly changing.  Covered in section below under ' Dynamic DKP Spending'  with fixed minimum opening bid value per item.

Example 1:

Bounty Total: 500 DKP
Max minimum Bounty Total: 40 DKP (that's 10 DKP per item, 4 items)

Raid Attendance: 35
Win DKP Earned: 14
Fail DKP Earned: 1

Fail calculation:

= (40/35)
=  1.14


Dynamic DKP Spending

Lets have raiders decide the value of items, based on their desire to have it.

All items start open bid at 10 DKP

3 rounds of bidding.   Going once, twice, sold.

All done in /rs open bid war.  No ceiling, but you can't bid more then you have.



A few observations to consider.  Using base value for items as the starting point, we let bid wars decide DKP earnings for the night.  This can be good and bad, but it's totally self sustaining and requires much less overhead (ie, me figuring out item values across multiple tiers and slots).  On the same note, no item decay has to be figured out over time, as players demand will solve that through bid wars.

With minimum opening bid per item being a fixed value, we establish a bounty total for use in determining DKP earnings on event failures.  An example is already shown above in the DKP earnings section.


DKP Hoarding

Now, on to the other issue, to prevent hoarding DKP.  We want people to spend DKP, even on little upgrades.  How about a DKP Tax.  Keep it simple, for every 1 DKP you have, ensues a tax of 0.5%.  So, someone with 150 points, would pay 75% more for an item.

Example:

Player_A: 150 DKP holdings
Item Cost: 20 DKP
Player_A Cost: 35 DKP

Calculations:

150 (0.5) = 75
20 (0.75) = 15

This is just 75% of the bid price 20 DKP.


This is actually something we could factor in after bid wars, and adjust it in the standings.  People would feel the pinch if they started banking large amounts of DKP.  300 DKP banked, you'd be paying 150% more for items.  Also keep in mind, we can set thresholds here even, so it doesn't penalize low DKP holders.


MIA Players

On the topic of inactive DKP holders, I've been trying to come up with a way to decay DKP fairly.  I guess fair is subjective, and in this regard, I considering the following format:

For every 16 Freelance raids held, a person must have attendance at any 3.

That's under 20% Raid Attendance, before DKP decay will kick in.  Not a high percent at all imo.



Comments greatly appreciated.  Thanks

- Furro

Lisard

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Re: Freelance DKP
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2009, 08:53:18 PM »
heres my view Blahblahblah yadda yadda...

if you wanna make it even. Just Make DKP by month or any set date really Start everyone out at like 50dkp, then they gain dkp per raid like 5dkp or someoffwall number then by the Set date Above if you have not spent your DKP you are reset to 50dkp
 so:

lets say you set the Dkp reset date  every 2 months, thats roughly 8 raids a month total of 16 raids.
Everyone starts out at 50dkp.
Every raid is Worth 5dkp.
thats a max DKP per two months of 80dkp+50DKp u start with= 130dkp.
if you do not spend u 130 dkp by the end of the 2 months you reset to 50dkp.


this keeps it fair and even and everyone has dkp to spend!
Again these are just example numbers u can set it to anythign really i suppose.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 08:55:02 PM by Lisard »

Furro

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Re: Freelance DKP
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2009, 03:54:03 AM »
  
Made various chanages.  Changelog updated for reference.



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Re: Freelance DKP
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2009, 08:17:16 PM »
  
Various changes made to the draft.  Reference the changelog for details as needed.


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Poddo

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Re: Freelance DKP
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2009, 03:25:39 AM »
After reading some more here are the issues I see coming up.   One this new change seems to be more rigid and more strict than what I always saw Freelance being.  Freelance was always awesome for being not your typical raid group.  There is no official membership,  people come and go as they see can.  Raids  were either larger or small.  Now with the new rules coming into effect I can only see two things happening:

1 Attendance goes up as  DKPs are the most fair and you have regular membership
2 Attendance horribly drops as DKPs require a time commitment that before did not matter.

With the addition of DKPS you might as well make up an application process and start recording members and  going through that crap.   I keep reading the different changes and ideas and  yes  this sounds  great for a full raiding team.   I just never viewed Freelance as that.  Sure there are the regular guys that I have seen at every raid but I also see different toons too.  

Like I said DKPs are the most fair and I do like them but also require alot of work and time that may burn out leadership as it can be a pain in the ass.

If I had the time I would join a raid team where I could  raid 4-5 times a week as I surpass most raid team requirements. I dont have that kinda of time and enjoy raiding when I can so I pop in from time to time to get that fix out of the way.  I missed out on  finishing Demiplane and Death Knell as  I  was real busy with school and work.  Recently I was able to see  BMK and Bimbo and  enjoyed it much even though I lost more xp than I gained during Bimbo.  

So far I see very few people  say   " Yay lets do this"  or post  "NO  I think its a terrible idea"    Maybe a poll or People should speak up.  I worry this could be the end of a good thing on fennin ro.  I see the good and the bad of this change and do hope that attendance goes up.  


My biggest suggestion is the KISS philosophy which is  Keep It Simple Stupid.  The simpler the better the more  complicaticated this the worse things will be and attendance lost.  These are my concerns and my raid attendance will be the same as ever.  I will attend when I can  whether I get DKPs or get to /random.  My attendance is low compared to most but I still follow you guys when  I am not here.  I look to see what you killled or didnt kill.

Well there are my thoughts

Regards
Poddo

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Re: Freelance DKP
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2009, 10:13:04 PM »
I do not understand how the bidding works?  From reading some of the posts, it sounds like the high bid in each round is kept secret.  In round 1, everyone bids.  I got that.  But at this point I think everyone should be told what the high bid is so they can make an educated bid for round 2.  Same thing applies to round 3.

Also, where will I be able to find/how will I know my accumulated DKP for bidding purposes?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 10:14:04 PM by Kaffin »

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Re: Freelance DKP
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2009, 02:15:49 PM »
Quote
 

Instead of "Points per hour", I'm considering a more dynamic approach to earning DKP.   Points earned based on the total loot distribution value divided by total raid members in attendance.  For example a 35 person raid, distributing loot worth 500 DKP total would mean each person in attendance receives approximately 14 DKP.  If the same raid had 54 in attendance, each person earned 9 DKP.

Formula: [ bounty_total / raid_attendance ]

This is something I agree with 100% and is also how i ran my DKP years back. really it is one of the easier ways of distributing DKP and is also very understandable and fair to all.

Quote
DKP Hoarding

Now, on to the other issue, to prevent hoarding DKP.  We want people to spend DKP, even on little upgrades.  How about a DKP Tax.  Keep it simple, for every 1 DKP you have, ensues a tax of 0.5%.  So, someone with 150 points, would pay 75% more for an item.

Example:

Player_A: 150 DKP holdings
Item Cost: 20 DKP
Player_A Cost: 35 DKP

Calculations:

150 (0.5) = 75
20 (0.75) = 15

This is just 75% of the bid price 20 DKP.

Now i do not like DKP hoarding just as much as the next person, and i feel for you trying to come up with a solution to prevent this w/out making anyone upset or discontent. there are all kinds of issues with raising prices for people with higher DKP. example being if someone has to spend 45DKP on an item that was being sold for 20dkp may cause frustration. I think maybe a lower percentage base of .25% would suffice in knocking down the DKP of the higher ranking characters. Still the problem with a percentage base is the higher the DKP the higher the Amount and this may very well be your point but i think maybe a SET number for 100 dkp, 200 DKP etc etc would be more efficient. Continue to increase by a value of 2.5 DKP per tier... each tier containing 100DKP.. (of course you could use any number as a per tier multiplier i was just using 2.5 as an example).

Tier 1 - 100-199dkp (2.5)
Tier 2 - 200-299dkp (5.0)
Tier 3 - 300-399dkp (7.5)
Etc. Etc.

so if your in tier 1 and purchase an item for 20 DKP it would cost you 22.5 DKP. if your in tier 2 and purchase a 20 dkp item it would cost you 25 dkp. still if someone is going to hoard DKP they will do it in almost any case no matter what the scale to prevent it. i do believe it is a valiant idea to want to keep the whole on equal terms but i think the easiest way to do that is to stick with the DKP and everything will be fair.

the point of making it a set number instead of a percentage is merely for better understanding by others. as well as being easier to track.


now on a side note, in a DKP standard raid team people need to understand that you need to be patiant, don't become angry when you dont win because odds are the event will be raided again, and even if its not higher content will be in the future.

Quote
My biggest suggestion is the KISS philosophy which is  Keep It Simple Stupid.

I agree and i do think that is what furro is working towards, he is wanting input on how to make everything fair and also making adjustments so that everyone will understand how the DKP is going to work.

Quote
So far I see very few people  say   " Yay lets do this"  or post  "NO  I think its a terrible idea"

I for one am completely on board for this idea, while randoming was a great thing and yes many people became interested because of it, it is also a nightmare for trying to progress. people end up coming for only raids where they want an item and when they win they dissappear. DKP will fix that issue and enable freelance to go deeper in progression. these raids are still open raids they are just a little more fair now.


« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 02:31:12 PM by Qonamderlo »

Furro

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Re: Freelance DKP
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2009, 03:19:48 AM »
  
Various changes made to the draft.  Reference the changelog for details as needed.


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Re: Freelance DKP
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2009, 03:30:51 AM »
Quote
I do not understand how the bidding works?  From reading some of the posts, it sounds like the high bid in each round is kept secret.  In round 1, everyone bids.  I got that.  But at this point I think everyone should be told what the high bid is so they can make an educated bid for round 2.  Same thing applies to round 3.


With the basic outline of the system refined, I added the bidding proceedure and other details for clarity.

I know we talked about bidding already in game, but I just wanted to quote your post so others know this area has been addressed.


Quote

Also, where will I be able to find/how will I know my accumulated DKP for bidding purposes?


I didn't add a link the to main FL site yet.  However, you can view your Current DKP holdings and other info using this link

I'll add the link to the draft as well.



- Furro
« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 04:46:10 AM by Furro »

Furro

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Re: Freelance DKP
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2009, 10:06:00 PM »
  
Extensive changes made to the draft.  Reference the changelog for details as needed.

The DKP Tracking system has been intergrated into the main Freelance website.

At this stage, all our loot policies and related details are covered in the document.   Please give it a read over again to make sure I didn't miss something.  Thanks.

My hope is to wrap this document up soon, and incorporate it into the main Freelance site over the next few days.


 
- Furro
« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 10:09:25 PM by Furro »