Freelance DKP & Random

[Furro]

    
Freelance is changing over to a DKP & Random loot system.

This is a massive change to how loot will be done on Freelance raids.  Since this isn't a guild, the system will have to be adjusted to deal with an open raid concept.  A system that doesn't shutout new members from joining.

Post your comments in this thread.  I'll be replying or editing this post, with updated DKP rules as they're ironed out.  This way it's an open process and you can see what's being considered.  I value your insight and hope this process will help iron out details which may get overlooked.

Objective:

The main objective here, is to create a fair system that rewards regular attending members, but at the same time gives newcomers a chance at loot.  Through collaboration, this document will be revised to reflect valid concerns of fairness, close potenial loopholes for abuse and trim up areas I may have accidently overlooked.  Once finalized, it should explain clearly how loot opportunities are fairly available to everyone, including those with limited playtimes.  In addition, it should explain in detail all calculations where applicable.

Please keep an open mind and add your concerns or suggestions by posting a reply within this thread.  Thanks.


 
    

Freelance Hybrid DKP System

HTML Version

Freelance EQDKP Database

System Overview

Freelance uses a hybrid DKP system for item distribution during raids.   The system incorporates both random chance and point rewards for participation.  This document explains the hybrid system, it's rules and related procedures.

A condensed overview of Freelance loot rules are explained at the start of each raid, and/or prior to item distribution.


Zero-tolerance Policy

We have a zero-tolerance policy with regards to item distribution.  If you're not sure on any aspect of the rules below, it's your responsibility to ask questions.  We recommend you never loot an item unless told to do so explicitly by the Raid Leader or someone designated with Raid Authority.  Looting something out of turn, and then claiming you didn't understand the rules is not acceptable and will result in a ban for life from Freelance raids.


Terminology

This section defines terms and abbreviations used within this system and/or during item distribution.
 
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TERM		DEFINITION
Loot		Items considered of value that drop during raids.  Usually from main events, but sometimes from other sources.
Loot Bounty		A collection of items considered of value that drop at an event.  Normally found after successful completion
		of an event.
Bounty Total		A value derived from total spent DKP on a per target basis.  Used in calculating DKP earnings.
/random		In-game random dice rolling, it can be any range between 0 to 32000.  Freelance uses 0 to 1000
		(example: /random 1000).
Real Life Person		This applies to a single person in the real world playing single or multiple characters in-game.
		All their characters are considered the same person, even if the person is boxing someone elses character.
FFA		This means "free for all".  In the context of this section, an item called as FFA is open to anyone who wants it
		without a /random or cost attached.
OPEN		Items tied to a category, that have gone through a first pass for distribution, where no player interest was
		declared.  These items are still subject to the DKP cost attached.
Last Call		This is done as a last warning call before /randoms are closed for the particular item.
Regular Loot		Items tied to the "LOOT" category, are items that count towards your loot for the night.
DKP		"Dragon Kill Points".  In general this is our system used to quantify loot distribution based on raid participation.
		These points are awarded for time spent on our raids, and used as currency to purchase items of value.
Current DKP		An individuals total point pool or holdings.
Mains, Alternates,		Different forms of character classification.  For the purpose of DKP tracking, these are all considered
Bots, Non-Mains		one and the same, in that they're equal individual entities and tracked as such.
Raid Attendance		An individuals participiation count, that is tracked.
Item Cost		A numerical value attached to an item.

Item Distribution

Freelance uses both DKP and Random 1000 to distribute items.  All items are associated with a category, and each category tied to a ruleset; which is used for item distribution.

* Important: DKP is still a factor, regardless of distribution method used (DKP/Random).  What this means is, you still earn DKP for an event where an item is distributed via /random.  By the same token, any items won via random, the DKP value attached is deducted from your Current DKP holdings.  For a newcomer, winning a /random, it's entirely possible to go into negative Current DKP holdings.  This can be alievated, by continuing to show up for raids.


Item Categories

Items categorized in this section, fall within the confines of the Freelance Hybrid DKP System.  Each "Real Life" person is allowed to participate, winning one AUG, LOOT, RUNE, and NA item per night.  "OPEN" items still count as your item in that category for the night, and are available to anyone, including prior winners.
 

     1         2         ]3         ]3         ]4         ]

CATEGORY		DEFINITION		RULESET		DKP BASE
AUG		Augmentation Item		Random 1000		10
LOOT		Regular Loot Item		DKP		10
RUNE		Spell / Melee Disc		Random 1000		5
N/A		Miscellaneous Items		Random 1000 & Raid Attendance		0
OPEN		Used in conjunction with above categories		Random 1000

In-game Preliminary:

 - Condensed version of the loot rules is covered in /raidsay
 - Loot Bounty is linked in /raidsay
 - "Doing loot now" call is made in /raidsay

Retro Content - Item Distribution by Player Request:

At the time of item distribution, the chest contents will be linked in /raidsay, and players interested are asked to link in the FLRaids channel the items they want processed.  The purpose of this procedure is to expedite the distribution process of low demand items.

Random 1000 Ruleset

Overview

All applicable category items are distributed via Random 1000 Ruleset.  Highest number wins; with one random per item, per "Real Life" person; and limited to one item win a night.


Stipulations

The following conditions are in play during the random ruleset:

• Strict /random format 0 - 1000

   

• One /random per item, per "Real Life" person

   

• One item win a night

   

• AUG, RUNE and LOOT categorized items, are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.

   

• N/A items may be subject to a Raid Attendance factor to determine eligibility for random.

   

• OPEN items tied to a category, are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.

   

• OPEN items are processed LAST.

   

• Identical items subject to Random 1000 Ruleset, are processed in a single pass.

   

• Items available for NPC Trade-In are distributed in the following order: LOOT, LOOT OPEN, LOOT OPEN (Classes: ALL).  These items are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.

Exceptions

The exceptions to the above random ruleset are as follows:

• "OPEN" items still count as your item in that category for the night, and are available to anyone, including prior winners.

 

• The Random procedure will be bypassed for class specific items, that fall under any category, when only one person of said class is in attendance.  The item will be categorized at that time only, by the Raid Leader, as FFA.

Random Ruleset Procedure

This section covers the format used during random ruleset.


Random Process Format:

/ran 1000 on < item_link > - < category >, GL!

< approximately 15 second window for randoms >

Last call on < item_link > (15 seconds).

< approximately 15 second window for randoms >

./random CLOSED.

Congrats < player_name > on < item_link > (their number rolled).


Random Process Completion:

After the items have been randomed off, a "Loot up winners!" call is done in /raidsay.  After which, winners may loot their item(s).


Random Ruleset Do's & Don'ts

This is a friendly reminder area to cover some common sense aspects of random.

Do's:

• Do understand our loot rules and ask questions on details you're not sure about.

   

• Do make sure you're near the person doing loot, so your /random is not out of range.

   

• Do try and make sure the item is usable by your class (ie, that the item lists your class where appropriate).

   

• Do make sure you are /randoming on the character that will be looting the item if you win (this applies to boxed characters).

Don'ts:

• Don't random if you have no intention of looting the item on win (ie: no joke randoms for fun, it's confusing and slows us down).

   

• Don't deviate from our /random 1000 format.  No exceptions are made (ie: /random 1 1000 is not acceptable, so don't do it).

   

• Don't make any side deals (offering money or whatever) to the higher rollers if you're the runner up to make them pass, so you can win the item.

   

• Don't AFK if you're waiting to /random on something.  We don't have all night to wait around for you to return.

Disclaimer:

Any category items being distributed in this fashion are done so on a per item basis.  Any item that does not fall under the Random 1000 Ruleset is made clear at the time of distribution.  These items are most likely, but not always, covered in the Miscellaneous Items section.

DKP Ruleset

Overview

All applicable category items are distributed via DKP Ruleset.

Raiders decide the value of an item, based on their desire to have it.

All items being auctioned have a base open bid value of 10 DKP.

Minimum bid increments of 5 DKP at a time.
 
There are 3 rounds of bidding, all done in /raidsay.

A player cannot bid more then his Current DKP holdings.


Stipulations

The following conditions are in play during the DKP ruleset:

• Strict Bid War format

   

• One bidder only, per "Real Life" person (no bidding on multiple boxed characters).

   

• One item win a night, per "Real Life" person.

   

• Tie or Matched Bids are ONLY permitted when an individual's current DKP holdings are equal to the current bid at the time.

   

• LOOT categorized items, are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.

   

• OPEN items tied to a category, are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.

   

• Items available for NPC Trade-In are distributed in the following order: LOOT, LOOT OPEN, LOOT OPEN (Classes: ALL).  These items are subject to the DKP cost attached, which is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings.

Exceptions

The exceptions to the above DKP ruleset are as follows:

• "OPEN" items still count as your item in that category for the night, and are available to anyone, including prior winners.

 

• The DKP procedure will be bypassed for class specific items, that fall under any category, when only one person of said class is in attendance.  The item will be categorized at that time only, by the Raid Leader, as FFA.

 

• Minimum bid exception - If your MAX TOTAL Current DKP holdings does not fall within 5 DKP; in which case you are allow to go all in.
  

Bid War Procedure

Shown here is the bid process format, all done in /raidsay, including those bidding on items.

Taking bids on < item_link > - < category >.   Starting at 10 DKP!

< approximately 15 second window for bids >

< GOING ONCE > at < HIGHEST DKP BID >

< approximately 15 second window for additional bids >

< GOING TWICE > at < HIGHEST DKP BID >

< approximately 15 second window for additional bids >

Bidding CLOSED.

Congrats < player_name > on < item_link > for < bid_amount > DKP!


Ties Between Bidders
 
Tied bids are resolved via Random 1000 Ruleset, between the tied bidders.  The item cost used is the tied bid value.

Tied Bidders Format:

Tied Maximum Bids! - ONLY: < player_names >, /random 1000 now on < item_link > for < tied_bid_value > DKP!

Last call (tied bidders only) on < item_link >, for < tied_bid_value > DKP!

./random CLOSED.

Congrats < player_name > on < item_link > for  < tied_bid_value > DKP.


No bidders on an item
 
Three elapsed rounds of no bids and the item will be processed as "OPEN", via the Random 1000 Ruleset.


Disclaimer:

Any category items being distributed in this fashion are done so on a per item basis.  Any item that does not fall under the DKP Ruleset is made clear at the time of distribution.  These items are most likely, but not always, covered in the Miscellaneous Items section.

DKP Gain & Loss

This area explains the factors that relate to earning and spending DKP.


Dynamic DKP Earning

DKP is earned based on the total value of loot distributed, divided by the total number of attendees, on a per event or target basis.

Formula: [ bounty_total / raid_attendance ]

Note:  bounty_total is dynamic, that means constantly changing.  Covered in section below under 'Dynamic DKP Spending'  with fixed minimum opening bid value per item.

All totals rounded to the nearest whole number.

Example 1:

Bounty Total: 500 DKP
Max minimum Bounty Total: 40 DKP (that's 10 DKP per item, 4 items)

Raid Attendance: 35
Win DKP Earned: 14
Fail DKP Earned: 1

Fail calculation:

= (40/35)
=  1.14


Dynamic DKP Spending

Items being auctioned for DKP, go through an open bid process.  Once done, the highest bid value is attached to that particular item.  This item value is deducted from the winners Current DKP holdings (with appropriate taxes applied).

Auction details are covered in section 'DKP Ruleset'


DKP Tax

In order to encourage DKP spending, and help stem off hoarding, all items are subject to a tax.  For every 1 DKP held, ensues a tax of 0.25%.   This tax is applied only on spent items.  So for example, someone with 150 DKP holdings, would pay 37.5% more for an item.

All totals are rounded to the nearest whole number.

Formula:  [ dkp_holdings ( tax_rate ) ] ( item_cost )

Example:

Player_A: 150 DKP holdings
Item Cost: 20 DKP
Player_A Cost: 28 DKP

Calculations:

= (150 (0.0025))(20)
= 0.375 (20)
= 7.5



* Important: Tax is not in effect at this time.  We're still in the early stages of this DKP system, and having tax in place as we're seeding the system is counter productive.  We may need to tweak with the tax rate also, but for now numbers are needed in the system to see how everything works out.

* Be aware:  Tax is calculated only after items are purchased.  This means, don't factor in tax to find out what you have available to bid with.  Simply use your Current DKP holdings as a ceiling during bidding.  It's entirely possible and normal, after tax is calculated from a purchase, to go into negative DKP territory.

Raid Attendance

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This section covers attendance procedure, stipulations, exceptions, and abuse.


Raid Attendance Procedure

Each person's raid attendance, is the determining factor as to whether they earn DKP and the amount for any particular raid.


DKP Check Procedure

• At start - when clearing trash, and/or prepping for an event or target.
• At event or target engage.
• At finish - when raid is done for the night.

Note:  Start/Finish checks are always 1 DKP.


Raid Attendance Stipulations

To be considered in attendance, you must meet the following conditions:

• Ready for action
• In the zone specified
• Within range of the raid

Raid Attendance Exceptions

There are no exceptions to the above stipulations.  This includes the following:

• No adjustments for LD / RIP time elapsed.
• No additions for joining after RA check.
• No other excuses, including real life emergencies will be considered, ever.

The list above, may seem harsh.  But the reality is, there's no accurate way in which the Raid Leader can make adjustments and be fair to everyone.  There's just no taking anyone at face value regarding any situation that may affect ones attendance.  The moment any adjustment is made, it raises speculation as to biases/favoritisms.

Everyone must just deal with the fact, that they will miss attendance checks from time to time for whatever reason(s).  Receiving half credit for a raid, is still better then receiving no credit.


Raid Attendance Abuse

This is to address and stem off possible abuse of the RA check system.

RA abuse constitutes showing up for an attendance check, then promptly leaving afterwards in order to receive credit.

1 DKP Start Check taken +/- 5 minutes from official start time.

Just a friendly word of warning.  These types of abuse to the system are easy to spot and can be tracked using pattern parsing techniques behind the scenes.  Freelance logs everything.  Any abusers will be banned for life from Freelance raids.


Inactive Raiders

* Be aware: This section will be reviewed and possibly revised at some future point.  At this time, there is no DKP decay in place.  The DKP system is setup to track activity, and simply mark any individual who exceeds the threshold set below.

A raider is considered inactive when they do not meet the following condition:  120 days without attending any Freelance raids.

Miscellaneous Items

Progression Items

Progression items such as Key/Flags are distributed via the N/A category.  N/A items inherit the guidelines associated with the ruleset used at the time of distribution.


Special Case Items

Items that spawn instances; unlock doors; and/or otherwise required for raid functionality are distributed to the Raid Leader, or those with Raid Authority.





CHANGELOG:
- Fixed up some brackets on the formulas
- Removed duplicate word in description of Current DKP under the Terminology section.
- Added "Trash Clearing" with it's associated deinfition above, to Terminology section. 
- Adjusted wording under DKP Gains section, relating to Trash Clearing, from 'early clear' to 'Trash Clearing'. 
- Replaced variable 'early_clear' to 'trash_clearing' in section DKP Gain Forumla.
- Replaced wording 'early clear' to 'trash clearing' in the example, under DKP Gain Forumla section.
- Added 'Key-type items' to the list of Miscellaneous Items
- Organized Miscellaneous Items section to a list format.
- Added a disclaimer for possible future changes to listed items under the 'Miscellaneous Items' section.
- Added Section: 'Transition Phase', along with associated details
- Fixed 'DKP Gain Formula' in sub-section 'DKP Gains' (brackets misplaced)
- Adjusted 'Item Cost Formula' in 'Item Cost' section
- Changed variable in 'Item Cost Formula' under the 'Item Cost' section from value 20 representing tier, to variable 'tier'
- Adjusted Examples in 'DKP Gain Formula' and 'Item Cost' to use the revised formulas
- Revised procedure/circumstances in sub-section 'No Ayes (2nd pass) under section 'Loot Distribution Procedure'
- Revised/added sub-sections/related material under 'Transition Phase' section
- Fixed typo and sentence structure under section 'Item Cost'
- Removed sections: 'DKP Gain, Loss & Decay', 'Item Cost', 'Item Cost Decay', and 'Loot Distribution Procedure'
- Added sub-sections: 'Dynamic DKP Earning', 'Dynamic DKP Spending' under section 'DKP Gain & Loss'.
- Added sections: 'DKP Tax' and 'MIA Players'
- Revised wording in sub-section 'Dynamic DKP Earning' under section 'DKP Gain & Loss'
- Removed the following terms and descriptions under 'Terminology' section: 'Decay', Lifetime Raid Attendance', 'Lifetime DKP', 'Negative DKP', 'Trash Clearing'
- Added 'Raid Attendance' and its description, under section 'Terminology'
- Revised 'Item Cost' description under section 'Terminology'
- Revised wording in sub-section 'Dynamic DKP Spending' under section 'DKP Gain & Loss'
- Added section 'Raid Attendance'
- Added sub-sections: 'Raid Attendance Procedure', 'Raid Attendance Stipulations', 'Raid Attendance Exceptions', 'Raid Attendance Abuse'
- Revised 'MIA Players' section
- Added clause to section 'Transition Phase'
- Adjusted tax rate from 0.5% to 0.25% under section 'DKP Tax'
- Revised wording/figures in section 'DKP Tax'
- Modified 'Be Aware' clause, under section 'Transition Phase'
- Revised 'Raid Attendance' definition,  under section 'Terminology'
- Added 'Bounty Total' and its description, under section 'Terminology'
- Clarified wording under sub-section 'Dynamic DKP Earning', under section 'DKP Gain & Loss'
- Revised wording in sub-section 'Dynamic DKP Spending', under section 'DKP Gain & Loss'
- Added section 'Open Bid Wars'
- Added sub-sections 'Overview' and 'Bid War Procedure', under section 'Open Bid Wars'
- Corrected a value in the tax example, under section 'DKP Tax'
- Adjusted sub-section 'Bid War Procedure' bid window time from 10-15 to 30, under section 'Open Bid Wars'
- Corrected spelling in various sections
- Removed 'Transition Phase' sections and related sub-sections.
- Added 'Loot Distribution States' section.
- Added sub-section 'Loot Distribution State Procedure', under section 'Loot Distribution States'.
- Removed 'MIA Players' section.
- Added 'Inactive Raiders' section
- Changed document title from 'Freelance DKP System' to 'Freelance Hybrid DKP System'
- Added additional terminology to section 'Terminology'
- Added sections 'System Overview' and 'Zero-Tolerance Policy'
- Added 'Random Loot Ruleset' section
- Added sub-sections: 'Overview', 'Stipulations', 'Exceptions', 'Random Ruleset Procedure', 'Random Ruleset Do's & Don'ts', Disclaimer' and related contents therein, under section 'Random Loot Ruleset'
- Renamed 'Open Bid Wars' section, to 'DKP Loot Ruleset'
- Rearranged  and reworded sections to help with flow.
- Added HTML link of the document, that points to the main Freelance site.
- Added EQDKP database link, that points to the Freelance EQDKP database.
- Changed Topic title to better reflect the system being represented.
- Rearranged the sections to help correspond the flow as I have it laid out on the main site.
- Added sub-sections 'Ties between Bidders', 'No bidders on an item', under section 'DKP Loot Ruleset'
- Revised section 'Terminology', terms: "Open to All", "Regular Loot".  Changes flow throughout the document.
- Revised  section 'Loot Distribution States', Activation of hybrid state clause, with associated effective date.
- Revised section 'Random Loot Ruleset', sub-sections: 'Description', 'Stipulations', 'Exceptions', 'Random Ruleset Procedure', 'Disclaimer'.
- Revised section 'DKP Loot Ruleset', sub-sections: 'Description', 'Exceptions', 'Bid War Procedure', 'Disclaimer'.
- Revised section 'Miscellaneous Items' rephrased and category additions.
- Added section 'Item Categories'
- Fixed spelling and sentence structure and other minor omissions
- Changed section title 'Loot Distribution States' to 'Item Distribution States'
- Changed sub-section title 'Loot Distribution States Procedure' to 'Item Distribution States Procedure'
- Changed section title 'Random Loot Ruleset' to 'Random 1000 Ruleset'
- Changed section title 'DKP Loot Ruleset' to 'DKP Ruleset'
- Adjusted wording/removed table within the 'Miscellaneous Items' section
- Added N/A Category, to cover miscellaneous items
- Under DKP Tax sub-section, added 'Important' clause.
- Changed wording in 'Terminology' section, for term: 'Raid Attendance'.
- Changed sub-section 'Dynamic DKP Earning' description.
- Changed sub-section 'Raid Attendance Procedure' description.
- Added sub-section 'DKP Check Procedure' under section 'Raid Attendance'
- Amended sub-sections 'Exceptions' in sections 'Random 1000 Ruleset', and 'DKP Ruleset'
- Adjusted timeframes and format under procedure, in sections: 'Random 1000 Ruleset', and 'DKP Ruleset'
- Minor verbiage changes addressed below within the related process/procedural areas to reduce the amount of typing required.
- Reformatted areas for easier reading, by reducing bolded sections.
- Item Distribution States changed from 50/50, to 70/30.
- Item Distribution State Procedure changed to reflect 70/30 adjustment
- Changed section Item Categories, table item Miscellaneous Item, added RA factor.
- Changed section Random 1000 Ruleset, sub-section Stipulations, added N/A items reference to factor in RA
- Changed section Random 1000 Ruleset, sub-section Stipulations, added NPC Trade-In procedure
- Changed section DKP Ruleset, sub-section Stipulations, added NPC Trade-In procedure
- Added "No Tie Bids" to DKP system, related Stipulations sub-section, altered to reflect change.
- N/A inheritance reference to 'Item Category' description
- Fixed wording in the 'Miscellaneous Items' section for clarity.
- Removed 'Item Distribution State Procedure' section.
- Renamed 'Item Distribution States' to 'Item Distribution'.
- Section 'Item Categories' changed to sub-section and included under 'Item Distribution' section.
- Added "OPEN" Category to table in 'Item Categories' sub-section for clarity as to purpose.
- Changed 'Random 1000 Ruleset', sub-sections: Overview, Stipulations.
- Corrected missing category 'RUNE', under 'Random 1000 Ruleset' section, sub-section 'Stipulations'.
- Changed 'DKP Ruleset', sub-sections: Overview, No Bidders on an Item.
- Reformatted terms section for cleaner presentation.  No new terms added.
- Added Minimum 5 dkp increments and related exception clause.
- Added clause: Retro Content - Item Distribution by Player Request.
- Changed: OPEN items to be processed LAST.
- Changed: Identical items subject to Random 1000 Ruleset, will be processed in a single pass.
- Changed: Start DKP check from +/- 15 mins to 5 mins of official start time.

[Darkwaters]

I think moveing to a dkp system is a very good idea. /ran-for-raids and dkp-raids both have their pros and cons, however, for Freelance, dkp encourages more serious and regular participation. A set raid force will develop, thus allowing those who wish to continue raiding with Furro to gain gear faster... and, this will allow for all of us to see more challenging and interesting content as time goes by. DKP can not only be a fair and efficent manner to split up loot in raids, but also helps weed out Loot-and-Scooters. I for one, look forward to seeing this take place.

A few thoughts to throw into the creative process, if I may:

Minimum Bids
A minimum bid placed on any given item is a good method of ensureing that people are less inclined to stockpile dkp and then outbid others with massive numbers.

Maximum Bids
A maximum bid placed on an item (ie, 'Bid on Dark's Old Coke Can (min 5 - max 15)') is a way to make sure new members (with less dkp banked) have an honest chance at getting loot.

Bid Rounds
Haveing 2-3 rounds of bidding discourages hell-bent-for-leather bids... People will be more conservative durring bids, and give managment a relativly accurate gauge of item-values. (m&m may change for each round)

RA / Loot History
What about ties on bids? How can loot rights be established? One time tested method is RA/LH. RA/LH favors members who have a better RA% than someone who does not, but also takes into consideration Loot History. Someone who has looted less then the other bidder may get favored. This allows loot to be evenly distributed. High RA with low LH equals a good chance at being granted loot rights.

Item Values
DKP values for new content priced higher than old content. Why?
1) Encourages older members to spend DKP on new content.
2) Encourages new members to spend DKP on farm content, and still get upgrades.

DKP Bonuses
A DKP bonus to be awarded to attendees for attendance in content that they do not bid in. This encourages people to attend any event. Even if they do not gain loot rights, they still benefit.

Anyway, thats my thoughts... may have more later. Hope that helps!

[Darkwaters]

DKP is also a good way to guage a raid force's need to raid any given contend. When management see's bids slacking off for some raid, its a good indicator that people dont need gear from that event... thus allowing management to plan for new content.

[Breniar]

Excellent idea and about time imo.  I doubt i'll be there either way but congrats to the cornerstone players who put tons of time into the team.  

[Huevos]

The issue of multiple toons by the same person or sharing accounts needs to be addressed too.

[Thewun]

As long as Freelance is doing DKP, I will not be there with any of my toons

Can you please elaborate on why?  Your thoughts and experiences on these matters are incredibly important to us.

[Poddo]

Although if we were a serious raiding  group  DKPs are the most fair.  I as I do not think any other system can really compare.    However I have enjoyed raiding with  Freelance  since I have first  noticed in PoP.  Here is why the loss /random saddens me a bit.  I for one only can raid  once in a blue moon  and some times I have come away with some nice loot and most times  I have not.  But on every raid I had a chance.  Now going to  a dkp system will mean  that my chance will slim down to those that are able to attend more.  The most likely chance is that I will only get the scraps no one else wants.  I am one of the  top group geared beasts on Fennin.  I  try to raid here and there but cant make a commitment to one raiding group.   That is why I like my weekly raid on saturdays and  the occasional Furro raid if I am able to attend.  It gives me the raid fix  I may need or  a random upgrade to my  I think decent gear.

I like the fact on a freelance raid I could just join and not have to worry about things like attendance and other time factors that prevent me from joining a raiding guild.  DKPs  scream to me that I need to worry more about attendance to get the gear I may want.  Which means I will probably pass on raiding with Freelance.  

I do think that this could be a good move for  Freelance and I hope it boosts attendance for Freelance.

[Qonamderlo]

I for one think a DKP system is a very good idea, i do not have good attendance but this is still the most fair way of doing loot for a raid team be it a guild or an accumulation of people from various guilds. I do not think this will hender anyone with fair raid attendance, being freelance only raids 2 nights per week (at this time) and is not pulling 5 nights a week and 10 targets per raid like some hardcore raiding guilds. And even if you only raid one day a month or 1 out of every 10 raids, who is seriously going to be upset with winning the scrap loots at a low bid? if you have a 300 HP / 115 AC Bp and you win a scrap loot of 450 Hp / 135 AC BP are you really going to be that mad because its DKP? its fair, it keeps people attending raids on a regular basis, it cuts down on wipes with the same people showing up more often then not. AND the big one, this will cut down from people only raiding ONE zone or event because it suetes them to be able to win that one item they want, then never show up again.

i do think there should be a small bonus for people over 80% raid attendance and this is not a nightly bonus depending on your DKP system your going to use should be a bonus once per week of .001 (1) dkp per week for anyone over 80%.

Also should be an on time or "early" DKp bonus every night of .001 (1). this gets people online and cuts down from waiting an hour until we engage the first event.

I am sure that Furro and team will be extremely fair in this endevour, i have never known him to be anything else.

Just a side note, you should not want to stop raiding just because its switching to DKP, this is a good turning point for team freelance and you should look at this as an opportunity to progress into the endgame of EverQuest.

**Edit** - Just another note, might also think about a .001 (1) DKP bonus for first time event wins as well for those that are there for the raids first time kill of an event..

             -for alts, i think they should get the same amount of DKP as mains BUT when they bid on loot they should pay 1.5% more in DKP value, and should not be able to bid unless no other mains are bidding. (example: if winning bid was at 20 DKP, then they would get charged 30)

I'm sure all of this has already been thought of but just like to throw in my 2cp.

[Breniar]

I wanted to elaborate as to why I think this is a good idea.  In the past (and present?  I don't know) there were players like Thewun, Heeth, Chekacoch, Suurge, and others i'm sure i'm forgetting.  These people put in tons of hours to get FL moving forward.  In many cases they carried the team and we wouldn't have been able to do a lot of encounters without them.  Now every once in a great while (maybe once, if ever, in some cases) they may want to roll on something.  Almost nothing we did was of any value to these people.  In my opinion they deserve a greater chance at getting these rare loots which they can use.

In contrast to that you get players like Merfy who show up for the single encounter which interests them and they drop the raid immediately afterwards.  Someone who puts in 20 minutes of their time a week (not to mention did nothing to help FL get into DP) shouldn't get an even shot at loot when someone else puts in many hours.  Players like Merfy shouldn't be allowed in the first place but a system like this puts them at a deserved disadvantage.

[Thewun]

 
Terminology:

Current DKP - An individuals total total point pool or holdings.

Lifetime Raid Attendance - Expressed as a percent.  This value represents total hours raided with Freelance (an individual running total from first raid attended).

I don't like this part here.  Suppose someone raided once with FL after dkp starts and takes a break, then a year down the line he comes back.  Wouldn't his LRA be adversely affected by the time gap in between?

DKP Gain, Loss & Decay

DKP Gains:

2 DKP for early clear (bonus, not always applied)
Explain what this means.

DKP Gain Formula is:

1 + ( lifetime_attendance/100) [ hour_value ( total_hours ) + early_clear + attendance_check ]

Bracket above.  Lifetime Raid Attendance is too potent of a factor, I'd multiply it by 1.x so that you dilute the effect it has on DKP gain.  Or LRA might be too flawed to keep.  SF uses a 30-day version of this where your attendance % in the last 30 days is the modifier that's used.  That might be better for FL.

DKP Loss & Decay

There are two methods which cause the loss of DKP:  Spending and Decay

Decay:

It looks like points will decay only if you start missing raids, is this right?  The purpose of point decay should not be to force regular attendance, but rather to encourage spending.  This section should be reworked to reflect that.

Item Cost

Not all items will cost DKP.  To clarify, at the moment armor and weapons will have an associated DKP cost attatched.

Item Cost Formula:   [(hit_points + mana) / 2 ] / [20 + focus_value1, 2, 3...]
The focus_value modifier should be in the numerator because those sorts of things make an item more valuable.

Item Cost Decay

Instead of a formula for item cost decay.  It could be addressed by setting a threshold, that once reached item cost would drop by a set percentage.  These percentages could be tweaked as needed.   Be it 10% of DKP value, 25% etc., once X number of items dropped.   It will entirely depend on the item and demand.
Example of this please, I'm uncertain as to what the process here is.

Miscellaneous Items

Key-type items needs to be addressed.  

Loot Distribution Proceedure

No Ayes (2nd Pass):

If no person Ayes on an item on the first pass, it is open for those who lack Current DKP holdings.  This applies to newcomers and/or individuals in Negative DKP standing.

This effectively means that the only loot a new person can win is something not wanted by any of the raiders with positive dkp. The difference can be as little as one hour of time between the winner and loser.  This doesn't seem significant enough to me to say that x deserves loot over y.

Suggestion
Transitory phase between current /ran 1000 and dkp:
- /ran 1000 before every box is opened, if the /ran is < 900 then use the current /ran 1000 method, but if the /ran is >= 900 then use the dkp system.
- next week do the same, but use 800 as the marker instead
- continue dropping by 100 until zero is reached or stop early because you want even the newest person to have a chance at anything

[wildwaters]

   I haven't raided on Fennin in a long time but I still like to see my friends there continue to progress >.<
   I have had experience with multiple types of dkp systems, council loot systems and /ran loot distribution. I would like to point a few things out if I am not being too bold.
   Primarily I want to point out that this transition can not come at a better time. Once you have started to break into tier one sof and solteris you will begin to move rapidly through content - but only if you distribute loot fairly with emphasis on your higher raid attendance members. Your raid team is only as good as your weakest members and DKP allows you to gear up your entire force evenly and progress at a reasonable rate as a team.
   Secondly, and most importantly, please give your full support to Furro and YOUR raid team (for it is YOUR team) during this process. There are going to be rocky moments and what may appear to be unfair loot awards. Switching to DKP is an evolutionary process and requires full support from all team mates to make it go smoothly. No system is perfect and that is why adjustments need to be made.
   Thirdly I would like to express my congratulations to you all for taking this important step in moving forward as a team >.<

   Now, not to pick on my brother darkwaters, but I am going to correct his misconceptions. I want to apologise to him becasue when he was asking me about DKP systems I was distracted by a series of difficult raids. My answers to him were vague and unexplained, as a result he drew some wrong conclusions.

   Quoting darkwaters, "Minimum Bids
A minimum bid placed on any given item is a good method of ensureing that people are less inclined to stockpile dkp and then outbid others with massive numbers. "

   Not precisely. Minimum bids give you a place to start. They are determined by event values and they determine maxmum bid values.

   Quoting darkwaters, "Maximum Bids
A maximum bid placed on an item (ie, 'Bid on Dark's Old Coke Can (min 5 - max 15)') is a way to make sure new members (with less dkp banked) have an honest chance at getting loot."

   Maximum bid caps serve a few purposes. First it ensures that there are fewer tie breakers. It also serves to prevent 'player A' from blowing all his dkp on one item. If 'player A' buys one 'HOT' upgrade with 1 months dkp and dies 3 times as much as 'player B' who purchased 3 upgrades with 1 months dkp then who do you think is contributing the most to the raid? Minimum and maximum bids also allow for content tiering.

   Quoting darkwaters : "Item Values
DKP values for new content priced higher than old content. Why?
1) Encourages older members to spend DKP on new content.
2) Encourages new members to spend DKP on farm content, and still get upgrades. "

   This is content tiering. What content tiering does is simple. Primarily it encourages all members of the raid team to show up for the progression raids (new content that is not on farm). Thus you earn more dkp for those new difficult fights and you are more likely to be there for them. Members who are poorly geared will then be able to buy the previous contents gear at the old values while earning twice as much dkp. It allows these poorly geared individulals to gear up quickly while the better geared people are getting the hot items from the new content (and paying for through the nose for them I might add >.<). Again your force is only as good as your weakest player.

   Quoting darkwaters "DKP Bonuses
A DKP bonus to be awarded to attendees for attendance in content that they do not bid in. This encourages people to attend any event. Even if they do not gain loot rights, they still benefit."

   Er... no... >.<
   If you earn dkp from attending an event then you are allready recieving benefits, you don't need special treatment just because you attended an event and didn't win anything.
   DKP bonuses should be awarded for these sorts of reasons
     1) an early start is called a week in advance for a raid and a dkp bonus for being on time is announced
     2) first time kill on a difficult event - good job here is some DKP for joo!!!
     3) it is the last event of the night, it is late, the event is difficult and people are logging because they got dkp and loot and are happy. Um... double dkp if you stay and we win babe. Lol it may seem silly but we have won some hard raids with low numbers because we WANTED to.

   Quoting darkwaters: "Bid Rounds
Haveing 2-3 rounds of bidding discourages hell-bent-for-leather bids... People will be more conservative durring bids, and give managment a relativly accurate gauge of item-values. (m&m may change for each round) "

   Having 3 bid rounds is a good idea. Keep in mind to keep the loot process as short as possible so you have more time to raid. You will probably want to have multiple 'raid officers' to do loot quickly. IE while officer 1 is handling the fine steel mace officer 2 is taking bids on the type 1 arrow and officer 3 is recieiving bids on that uber kobold shield.
   The reason for 3 rounds of biding in a closed bid system is that you want to allow a player to bid a min-bid, a mid-bid and a max-bid. For example:

   Min bid on a fine steel sword is 1dkp. Tells are sent to an officer as bid rounds are called.
   Round 1: Player A bids 1dkp, player B bids 1dkp and player C bids 1dkp.
   Round 2: player A bids 2dkp, player B bids 2 dkp and player C bids 4dkp
   Round 3: player A does not raise his bid because he will not pay more than the 2dkp he has allready bif for the fine steel sword. Player B bids 3 dkp and Player C bids 6 dkp.
   Winner: Player C is the winner for 4dkp. Player C outbid player B by 1 dkp but cannot out bid himself. The award is then announced in raid chat 'Grats player C on fine steel sword for 4dkp"

   Now, that is in a closed bid system. Why is a closed bid system the best? It prevents a player from waiting until all bids are in and then sniping the loot with a final dkp call that is only 1 point above the current highest bid. If someone does that they are just slowing down the loot distribution process. Such a person has little respect for the time of his team mates and only cares about what he can loot as opposed to moving forward as a team.

   Quoting darkwaters "RA / Loot History
What about ties on bids? How can loot rights be established? One time tested method is RA/LH. RA/LH favors members who have a better RA% than someone who does not, but also takes into consideration Loot History. Someone who has looted less then the other bidder may get favored. This allows loot to be evenly distributed. High RA with low LH equals a good chance at being granted loot rights."

   The whole point of a DKP system is to encourage high RA so that you have a steady, evenly geared  and reliable raid force to work with each schedualed raid night. You cannot do anything if no one shows up. it benefits everyone who is willing to commit to such a team. Hell if you don't wnat to raid to progress as a team then why join a raid team? You might as well go do group progression - the gear is nuts.
   That being said, loot history really plays no role in a dkp system other than to encumber it. RA over the past thirty days should be the primary way of determing the winner of a dkp tie. Then if 30 day is tied go to 60 day and then 90 and then life time.
   Also constraints should be placed on how many tie breakers you can win in a month. IE if you won a max bid tie in the last 30 days you cannot win another one until 30 days are up.

   Quoting darkwaters: "DKP is also a good way to guage a raid force's need to raid any given contend. When management see's bids slacking off for some raid, its a good indicator that people dont need gear from that event... thus allowing management to plan for new content. "

   Very true. In content prior to solteris you will see alot more rots because there are a large amount of class specific items.
   In solteris and sof/sod content you will see less or no class specific items. So these will not rot (exception being like pally/sk swords etc.). So, yes dark, this is very true. As a raid team sees more and more things rot in previous content it is time to release that content to pick up raids and focus on farming the next content up that they have beaten more than once and then hit up the next highest content available to them for progression.

   Hope this helps guys. Primarily looking at Furros system and some comments I think some definition of what FL is going to expect from a DKP system might be beneficial.

   Currently my guild uses this sort of system which works very well and is easily adaptable toa pick up team:

   Dkp is awarded per an event (per an attempt on progression targets and per a win on farm targets [if a farm target wipes us half of the assigned dkp value is awarded]) and checks are taken at mid-event intervals to count towards RA.
   Minimum bid is set as a multiple of the event value.
   Maximum bid is set as a multiple of the event value.
   Bidding is done via tells to the raid officer handling an item (closed bid system) in three rounds.
   Tie breakers are done by 30 day RA (so if a person that has taken a year long break returns they can then gear up in farm content and if they have good RA over last couple months it has no effect on what they can win at all).
  
   I would like to point out Furro that dkp that is awarded by the hour does little to encourage a person to be on time. Bonuses for being on time are extremely detrmental to those who cannot be on time due to RL.
   Those who are always late due to RL probably know that this will effect their dkp earnings and RA. They will be on time when they can but have made the right choice in choosing RL over raiding EQ.
   Also I would like to encourage you to keep the system simple and evolutionary.
 
   As a good transitory period you might continue /ran 1000 for one month but simply award dkp for that whole month and when a person wins a /ran 1000 they get a minimum bid charge to their earned dkp. This would allow a dkp base to be built up with out having everyone have the same amount of dkp built up. If someone wins a bunch of /ran 1000's and goes negative their dkp could be reset to 0 when the full switch was made.

   I am so encouraged to see you guys going this route and I know my brother is VERY excited about it >.< GL, kick ass and please, please ;tell maelin.wildwaters to show me those uber loots yer gonna be winning >.<

                                                   sincerely - wildwaters

  

[Furro]

 
Terminology:

Current DKP - An individuals total total point pool or holdings.

Lifetime Raid Attendance - Expressed as a percent.  This value represents total hours raided with Freelance (an individual running total from first raid attended).

I don't like this part here.  Suppose someone raided once with FL after dkp starts and takes a break, then a year down the line he comes back.  Wouldn't his LRA be adversely affected by the time gap in between?

Removed duplicate word 'total' noted above in draft version.  Changelog updated.

This is only a terminology section.  It's used to define any abbreviations and terms for clarity.  How these terms come into play later should be address in the relevant sections further in.  

However, to answer your question.  If someone were to take a year hiatus from Freelance and return.  His LRA would of course reflect this.  Again, this is merely a stat, that's being tracked.   How we use it to factor in decay or something else, or NOTHING at all except for tracking is something that I feel is flexible.

Having said this, I'm totally open to changes with how we use LRA.  I think if we can find a delicate balance using it in a fair way, that'd be great.

 

DKP Gain, Loss & Decay

DKP Gains:

2 DKP for early clear (bonus, not always applied)
Explain what this means.

Rewording early clear to better define.

Trash Clearing - Applied to events with excessive amounts of trash mobs that must be cleared before reaching the main event target(s).

This is something bonus and not always applied.  I removed the word 'early' so that it can be used in different stages of the raid.   Early implies during gather or something, which isn't exactly what I want it used for exclusively.

I wanted to add this bonus in, to account for zones like Meldrath’s Majestic Mansion, where it's known to have alot of trash to clear prior to each event etc.  The zone I mention is only an example. I want some form of bonus option available in the system so it's there and can be used when needed.

While I'm on the topic of DKP Gain, I realise this area is going to require alot of adjustment.  We may have to increase value per hour, or allow gains in half hour increments etc.  This is all open for debate.  I value everyones insight and past experiences with other DKP systems for what works and doesn't.


Changelog updates:

- Added "Trash Clearing" with it's associated deinfition above, to Terminology section.  
- Adjusted wording under DKP Gains section, relating to Trash Clearing, from 'early clear' to 'Trash Clearing'.  
- Replaced variable 'early_clear' to 'trash_clearing' in section DKP Gain Forumla.
- Replaced wording 'early clear' to 'trash clearing' in the example, under DKP Gain Forumla section.

 
DKP Gain Formula is:

1 + ( lifetime_attendance/100) [ hour_value ( total_hours ) + early_clear + attendance_check ]

Bracket above.  Lifetime Raid Attendance is too potent of a factor, I'd multiply it by 1.x so that you dilute the effect it has on DKP gain.  Or LRA might be too flawed to keep.  SF uses a 30-day version of this where your attendance % in the last 30 days is the modifier that's used.  That might be better for FL.

What I was trying to do here, was give newcomers a boost on DKP gains.  But at the same time, reward those who maintain high attendance.  For example, a newcomer (first time attending our raid), would have 100% lifetime attendance.  So right away, the LRA is not a detriment, but can allow someone new to gain fast DKP and catchup to someone who has say a 75% LRA.  If they don't continue to attend raids, of course, they shouldn't be rewarded and thus, LRA has less effect on their gains.  I guess it's two fold what I'm trying to accomplish, which is retention.

I'm aware of the 30, 60, 90 day DKP attendance systems, but I just wanted to toy around with this idea here to see if it can work.  I'll take a closer look at SF's system and others to see how it pans out.

DKP Loss & Decay

There are two methods which cause the loss of DKP:  Spending and Decay

Decay:

It looks like points will decay only if you start missing raids, is this right?  The purpose of point decay should not be to force regular attendance, but rather to encourage spending.  This section should be reworked to reflect that.

Indirectly having LRA tied into decay, rewards those who show up more to Freelance raids, by not having their DKP decay (after the grace period elapses).  We could easily set ceilings where say someone reaches 500 DKP and caps out.  But what's to stop someone from capping out, and then banking that DKP for 3 months until we're in higher content and coming back spending it on items?  This is the kinda thing I want to avoid, no one should be able to bank DKP while taking long periods of absence from FL raids.

Don't get me wrong here, I want to encourage spending of DKP.  However, at the same time, I feel we need to reward regulars for attendance.   The grace period factor is there for a reason also, to lessen the hurt before decay kicks in.  Keep in mind, this grace period can be adjusted upwards if it's felt by others as too low.  Lots of options we can do here to find a balance imo.

 

Item Cost

Not all items will cost DKP.  To clarify, at the moment armor and weapons will have an associated DKP cost attatched.

Item Cost Formula:   [(hit_points + mana) / 2 ] / [20 + focus_value1, 2, 3...]
The focus_value modifier should be in the numerator because those sorts of things make an item more valuable.

We could just increase the focus_value numbers.  Items with 1 focus, value 4.  Items with 2 focus, value 8.  This is highly class dependant.  I doubt we're going to find any easy way to calculate focus/clicky importance.  Especially on ALL/ALL items.   Post your formulas, or modify the current one to how you feel it could work.  We have to be careful here also, inflating base value of items for whatever reasons, has to be within the ballpark of achievable to an average attendee through DKP Gains.   What I mean here is, we can't push up the price so high, that it'd take 2 months to earn enough DKP to buy the item.

Item Cost Decay

Instead of a formula for item cost decay.  It could be addressed by setting a threshold, that once reached item cost would drop by a set percentage.  These percentages could be tweaked as needed.   Be it 10% of DKP value, 25% etc., once X number of items dropped.   It will entirely depend on the item and demand.
Example of this please, I'm uncertain as to what the process here is.

This is totally open ended atm.  Our class makup per raid is so sporadic, that item demand changes from raid to raid.  This has me leaning towards changing the 'Aye/highest holder' system shown further below, to a bid style system with a chaotic element attached (I'll post details on this after).

On a related note regarding the bid comment above, we would still have opening bid values assigned.

Decay may have to be set on a nightly basis, based on current demand that night.  To avoid abuse, collusion among raiders by not bidding to force item value down, we could fallback on /random 1k any items no one bid on.  At least this way it'd open it up to newcomers and/or those without enough dkp.

Miscellaneous Items

Key-type items needs to be addressed.  

Changelog updates:

- Added 'Key-type items' to the list of Miscellaneous Items
- Organized Miscellaneous Items shown, to a list format.
- Added a disclaimer for possible future changes to listed items under the 'Miscellaneous Items' section.

This section is to cover items outside Armor and Weapons.  Armor includes non-visible slots.

Items listed here will be distributed via normal /random 1000 methods.

• Augments
• Progression Flags
• Runes for spells/discs
• Key-Type Items

Note:  Any item listed here is subject to change and have an assigned DKP value attached.

Loot Distribution Proceedure

No Ayes (2nd Pass):

If no person Ayes on an item on the first pass, it is open for those who lack Current DKP holdings.  This applies to newcomers and/or individuals in Negative DKP standing.

This effectively means that the only loot a new person can win is something not wanted by any of the raiders with positive dkp. The difference can be as little as one hour of time between the winner and loser.  This doesn't seem significant enough to me to say that x deserves loot over y.

I understand your concern here.  We could scrap 2nd pass altogether, and open it up to /random 1000.   At least then it would be open to newcomers.  We could still apply the DKP value to the winner also.

Suggestion
Transitory phase between current /ran 1000 and dkp:
- /ran 1000 before every box is opened, if the /ran is < 900 then use the current /ran 1000 method, but if the /ran is >= 900 then use the dkp system.
- next week do the same, but use 800 as the marker instead
- continue dropping by 100 until zero is reached or stop early because you want even the newest person to have a chance at anything

I support this kind of transitory period we discussed this last week.  However, in haste, totally forgot to incorporate it into the draft.  I wanted to get this draft posted to get feedback ASAP.  I've since added this transitory section to the draft.  The changelog reflects the addition.

Changelog updates:

- Added Section: 'Transition Phase', along with associated details

Transition Phase

A temporary measure in which Freelance will gradually phase out aspects of /random for main means of loot distribution.  In place, phase in our DKP loot distribution system.  This will be done using the following method:

Before each bounty of loot is opened, if the Raid Leaders /random 1000 results in < 900, then the current /random 1000 method is used for loot.

Next weekend, same as above is applied, except this time the marker is lowered to < 800.

Each weekend, the marker is dropped by 100, until zero is reached or until a happy medium is decided.  


Note: Whether we phase out /random completely is undecided at this time.  I've allowed wording from above to give us flexibility for changes.  As Thewun pointed out, by not zeroing out the marker, it will allow newcomers a chance at loot.



Thanks for your comments Thewun.

- Furro

[Furro]

  
Radical idea for incorporating a chance factor.


Loot Distribution

I wrote up this loot idea that I came across.  It incorporates a random factor, within a DKP system.   I was thinking with some modifcations it maybe workable with Freelance.

It's based on open bidding for DKP valued items.  The twist is, highest bidder doesn't necessarily win the item.   It all comes down to chance in the end.   So it's really just how much DKP are you willing to risk for a particular item.  Do you feel lucky?

Here's an example:

Let's say Item_01 drops and a base value is set at 100 DKP.  We open bids on the item and 5 individuals bid ranging from 100 to 175 DKP.

Now those 5 bidders /random their DKP bids!   The person with the resulting number closest to their bid, wins the item.

So, using the above 5 bidders, let's say these are the outcomes:

100 bidder rolls 97
110 bidder rolls a 10
125 bidder rolls a 56
125 bidder rolls a 91
175 bidder rolls a 20

In this case, the LOWEST bidder won and it's completely fair, since he had the points to bid with.  This allows people to put their own weight on item value, and not be shut out by some DKP hoarder who bids high.

It's interesting to me and adds a chance element.  Another point is, we can still set base values for the opening bid.  Of course, we wouldn't allow fractions of DKP to be bid and ties could be addressed with /random 1k perhaps.


Feel free to comment!

- Furro

[Thewun]

Don't do that last thing you just mentioned in the way you've outlined.  People who bid the minimum bid will always have roughly the same chance of winning anything as any other bid so it behooves everyone to always bid min.  There should be a reason for someone to bid higher, and that's not reflected in that suggestion.

[Furro]

Don't do that last thing you just mentioned in the way you've outlined.  People who bid the minimum bid will always have roughly the same chance of winning anything as any other bid so it behooves everyone to always bid min.  There should be a reason for someone to bid higher, and that's not reflected in that suggestion.

I agree, I wouldn't implement it in that fashion either.  I only mentioned it here, to spark some discussion on possible ways it could be altered to work with Freelance.   I like the random factor, but I want some valid reason for high bids as well.


- Furro